Mercury Cougar Owners banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
im going too start a buildup of a 4v 351C very soon. ( for the Mach1) i have a set of closed chamber 4v heads, its a 4 spd manual ( not the close ratio ) and it has a 3.50 geared rear end. I want to use a Performer RPM intake with it ( do they even make one for the 351c 4V??i havent seen one yet ) ill get some headers for it, im not sure which ones yet but probably hedmans. i dont plan to have air conditioning on the car ( if the car had it, i know that its non functional at the moment so bye bye it goes ) (that would have been the case for the Cougar as well, but i got lucky... it worked when i bought it... so it gets to live) my question is what would you reccomend for a camshaft for this car???? i want a hydraulic one ( rollers cost too much :( ) and i was looking at some in Summits catalog, their grinds. ( $75 with lifters :) ) but im not sure about grinds and such. The car wont be a daily driver, but i would like to take it out maybe 3 times a week. i want ( in all honsty) a 12 second car out of it. i dont know if that will happen, but thats what i would want anyway. i would like it to be civil enough to have the power brakes still, and not have to idle at 2500 rpms as well. Im not sure about a carb yet either, but im leaning towards a Holley 750 or a Holley 670 Street Avenger. im not too great with combos like these, so i would appreciate the help with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
Yikes! this can get long and it's too late for me now. Just an FYI real quick. Higher performance cam (longer duration and higher lift) when you get to a certain point will require minimum compression ratio, decent hedders and exhaust, and the big cruncher...different springs, retainers, keepers, and machining of the heads. I'd have to talk to you in person to get into cams cause it's too long to put in writing with too many variables.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
The key to your question is 12 sec! Cougar1 is right there are variables, starting with whether your heads flow enough to support more cam. As mentioned you also need the cr to support that new cam and of course more stall. Point being an engine is an air pump consisting of subsystems. You can't change one component without affecting the rest.
Having said that, in a car that is not a dedicated strip car, I am partial to CC XE series as they give more you more under the cam due to their aggressive lobes, i.e. compared to a cam of the same duration they lift quicker.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
ok ok ok. i see lots of variables here too. i have the 4bbl heads for the 351C. they are off of a 70 Mustang. dont know if they will flow well enough, but those are some damn big valves and ports. If i can find a PerformerRPM intake, i think that would help as well, im just not sure if they make one for the 351C 4v. il be looking to be sure. as far as i know, the heads are stock. The car is a stick so stall speed isnt as issue here. i know there are many variables to mess all of this up, so im trying to divulge all i know about the engine right now. closed chamber heads... 2.19 intake valves...... big ports..... planning 2.5 in dual exhaust full tips, maybe side outlets ( i dont like axle dumps... too loud ) i you need any other info ( im sure you will ) just ask. stock these engines had what?? a 10.25 CR??? im not sure off hand though... 72 block and 70 heads... hmmm im not sure yet
 

·
Contributing Sr Motorhead
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
COMPRESSION RATIOS: According to my reference book, a set of closed chamber heads with flat top pistons will give 11.0:1 compression. If your 72 'Q' code car is original, it will have slightly dished pistons, giving about .5 points less compression. Therefore, if you still have the dished pistons, with a set of early heads you'll have around 10.4- 10.5 compression. That is about the limit you'd want to go for the street on pump gas. Open chamber 4V heads will give about 8.7 with dished pistons and 9.0 with flat tops.

INTAKE MANIFOLDS: There is no such thing as a Performer RPM for 4V Clevelands. Normally, the RPM-style intake has larger ports. With the 4V Clevelands, you really don't want the ports any bigger. A standard performer or other high rise dual plane intake will suit you just fine for anything up to 6500rpm.

CAMSHAFT SELECTION: Since you'll have the compression, headers, intake and other goodies you mention, what about the Lunati Bracket Master cam? Lots of lift and longish duration. Perfect for a stick car. Personally, I don't care for the cams that have the same specs for intake and exhaust. Show me just one engine that flows that way. Clevelands especially have crummy exhaust ports. They need all the help they can get here. These cam manufacturers are just too lazy to make a dual pattern cam. Comp Cams, Erson, etc are single pattern cams. Crane, Lunati and other quality manufacturers use dual patterns. If I were you, I'd go with a cam that has around a .550-.570 lift. That's about the limit for Clevelands without piston flycutting. My 73 'Beta Cat' has a Crane Econopower 260 cam, .493/.510 lift and 260/274 duration. Stock intake, stock exhaust manifolds and true duals. With the factory CJ high stall converter and a set of 3.70 gears I will run a [email protected] all day, every day. With your car equipped the way you intend, and with the proper camshaft, I would expect yours to run around 12.6 - 12.8s with ease. That's where my 'Alpha Cat' runs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaank Yooouuuuu allll. aaaaaaahhh i needed that. now to buy a cam for it. i plan on ripping into the engine this week, heres hoping that its all good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
ok ok ok, how about this ( im broke, thats mainly why i choose this lol ) is a Summit cam, specs are Duration 218 in 228 ex lift 509 509 lobe separation 114 degrees but this is why i look at it hardest 75.95 for the cam with lifters........ i havent checked my PAW catalog for the Crower cams or the local speed shop yet though. so ill check those first before anything is final:D part number sum-k5201
 

·
Contributing Sr Motorhead
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Summit's cams

I have used some of the 'house-brand' cams from Summit in the past. They aren't too bad. Some of them look suspiciously like Crane cams based on the specs (same lift/duration). Even the printed instructions that came with the cam looked like the same instruction sheet as Crane but 'sanitized' - with no Crane logo. Don't ask me why they're able to sell them so cheap. I don't know all of the specs for the cam you're looking at so I can't make a real clear decision. It sounds like it should be better than the stocker, but no a heck of a lot. Remember, the stock Cleveland CJ cam had .480/.490 lift. That is the biggest factory cam going for Clevelands. Even the Boss 351 only had .477/.477! My reference book doesn't have the duration of the factory cams. Anyway, like I said, those Summit cams are OK, but nothing fantastic like you can get from other aftermarket sources.

At one time I had a Bluesmobile. An 87 Crown Vic ex-cop car. It was only four years old at the time but had 110k miles on it. Bought it for $1565 from one of the local suburbs at their sealed bid auction. Anyway, the car had a 351W with that stupid Variable Venturi carb on it. The problem being that the repair manual for those things looks like a big telephone book. Once you start messing with them they're about impossible to get back into tune. Even the dealerships would just replace the carb outright rather than spend hours fussing with them. Of course, someone had messed with this V-V, so it didn't have a 'choke'. V-Vs don't have a real choke, per se, they have an enrichment circut and someone had messed with the settings. Yipes. Rather than spend days trying to get it right, I took the chicken's way out and decided to replace the entire setup with a '351-HO' four-barrel intake and Holley carb from a 83-87 F-series truck. Ford had even approved this swap on the V-V equipped police cars in a Tech Service Bulletin!

This turned out to be a case of the 'might as well's. As long as I'm replacing the intake, I might as well replace the original water pump. As long as I'm replacing the water pump, I might as well replace the timing set. As long as I'm replacing the timing set, I might as well replace the cam. You see how this goes? Anyway, since this was going to be my 'winter-beater', I ordered the cheap cam and lifter set from Summit. When all was said and done, this old Vic would rock!. After a rear gear swap from the stock 2.73s to a 3.27 posi, the thing screamed! I gave the car away to a racing buddy a couple of years later and he put that engine in a nother car to go racing. AFAIK, it is still in there!

Anyway, to get back to the point, Sixt9, you won't go 12s without spending $$$. The house brand cams from Summit are good for a mild stocker, but don't expect to take on the world and win. You're still going to have some other limitations using the other factory parts in your engine. You will probably end up somewhere in the 13s with a modified stock engine.

Real high performance is serious business. It ain't cheap, either! I probably have over two grand into the engine in Alpha Cat, and that was at 1984 prices! If you're really serious about running with the Big Dogs, your engine will need more changes than just throwing on the basic intake, carb and cam! Valve springs, aftermarket one piece valves, better lightweight pistons, better rod bolts, windage tray, crank oil scraper, balancing, race-approved damper, race approved scattershield, driveshaft loops, racing shocks, traction bars (or ladder bars or four link) .... Then you get into subframe connectors, roll cages, and you're sure as heck aren't gonna run 12s on street tires, so you'll need a good set of slicks.... Now do you see why I got out of racing? It got too darned expen$ive! And this isn't even taking in to account breaking anything! Blow an engine, and you're out another couple grand!

I'll be glad to help you with any advise you'll need, but I draw the line there. Its your money!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
669 Posts
I agree with cougarrcj. The cam you picked will be a good all around street cam. 218/228 509 lift with 114 lobe sep will give nice low end torque w/o sacrificing too much top end. The 114 lobe sep will give you a nice broad power band. I ran a similar cam in my 302 with a 3.00 rear and liked it. Ran the car with it for 17 yrs. Recently i decided to go to a Comp Cam 230/236 520/523 lift and 110 lobe sep. Enter a whole new realm of reality. Within 20 miles i broke two rockers and the tip off a valve. Luckily the valve stem broke so the valve did not fall in the cylinder. Next I decided to 'follow manufacturers recomendations' and went with double springs, 7degree retainers and keepers and roller tip rockers. I also had to machine the spring pedestal off the heads since the inner spring was binding with 523 lift. Now the problem is i need to go with at least 3.55 gears to take advantage of what the cam has to offer. Luckily i have a top loader 4 spd so the tranny isn't an issue or having to switch converters.
Like cougrrcj said, you won't go 12's.
Put it this way, the rate at which expense goes up compared to how much faster you go is exponential.
I'm not sure about 351 heads, but if i had to guess with the stock set up (springs, rockers, etc.) you're probably right at the limit with the 509 lift.
Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
i dont have the sprins rockers or retainers for the heads at the moment anyway, so im going to have to buy all of that as well. i have the stock valves in it though but idont know if i should swap those out as long as im at it. as far as a cam goes, ill still be looking around. i still have my big PAW catalog here but i havent peered into the vast territories that is its cam section. will i have to notch the pistons with a new cam? if not whats the "safe" lift and rpm for flat top pistons?? i dont need kaboom when i decide to mae a big sideways smokie up an onramp for the first time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
12 seconds....

Obviously not just a cam is going to get you a 12 second car.
If you want a true 12 sec car it is going to take lots of cash.
Your on the right track. Headers, intake, carb, exhaust, valves, rockers, 3/8 pushrods, pistons, ignition, tires, etc.
Some of my experience with the 351-C.
1. I doubt a hydraulic cam is available that is aggressive enough to run in the 12's. For a 351-C I would definately go with a mechanical. Mechanical cams are more aggressive with more lift possible without as much duration. Something you will need to make some torque with those huge valves and ports. My buddy ran a mechanical with almost .600 lift and ran a best of 12.66.
Of course a roller would be ideal but like you said. $$$$
2. Gears. 3.50 gears are not going to get you into the 12's.
Depending on your tire size you're going to need somewhere around 4.56 or 4.88's. And count on a good locker or posi if you're ever going to hook up.
3. Edelbrock has the Torquer(sp?) for the 351C. That would probably be a good choice. I had a Holley Strip Dominator and it was a monster. (but I also had .640 lift and 5000rpm stall)
4. Valvetrain gets expensive. But if you do it right the first time it will last longer and cost you less in the long run. 3/8 pushrods and guide plates are a must for higher rpm 351C's. Pig-tailing the stock ones puts a quick end to race day.
Hope that helps?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
all good help here, im a knowledge hound lol. Im still thinking about all of my options here. I know a guy with a 69 Camaro that runs a 12.7 in the 1/4. granted its probably lighter than the Mach1 but i think ill talk to him too and see what he says. I talked to many people and many opinions as well. another guy i know has a 69 Nova with a Performer RPM Holley 750 nice headers MSD ignition fiberglass hood some heads ( they are factory ones, but i dont know off hand what they are) and a mild cam in his 350. with a 3.08 ratio and a posi, hes running low13s. and its an auto tranny car. Maybe its luck, but he says he doesnt belive in alot of cam or gear. i dunno, it seems to work with him. i WANT 12s, but ill take low 13s too. its a 4 spd as well, wont that set off the 3.50 gears a bit?? i forgot what 1st gear is, but i think its like a 2.7? ( i have the specs somewhere, so ill look it up )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
the heads

Beleive me the heads will flow my dad has a 73 mustang q-code with the 4 barrell heads if you have the 4v intake you shouldnt need the intake either. Dad's Mustang ran 12s from the factory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
how about this cam---- Ford motorsport cam for the 351C PN ( from PAW) FOR-M-6250-A341 hydraulic flat tappet cam duratin @ .050 214I 224E Duration 292I 302E lift .510I .536E andis $69.95....... doesnt sound bad to me at all........ although i still need lifters springs rockers and stuff. well, PLEASE LET ME KNOW ABOUT THIS CAM!!!!!!!!!!!! it sounds pretty good to me, but me being a novice, im not sure still.
 

·
Contributing Sr Motorhead
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Motorsport cam

OK, with that last set of specs you gave us, I can say that that sounds like an OK cam. You should be able to get into the low, low 13s with that setup. That duration @.050 is still a bit on the mild side for an 'all-out' cam. Full-boogie cams will have more duration than that at .050. Actually, this cam sounds about perfect for a street/strip, nose heavy car like your Mach. With your wide ratio 4-spd and the 3.50 gears this is about as far as you will want to go and still be able to drive it in LA traffic. I'd say go for it.

My cam, in my ((shhhh) 396 Camaro) was .553/.576 304/314 and 234/244 @.050. At the time that was the nastiest hydraulic cam Crane made for the big block chevy. Initally I was running a 4-speed, but then converted to TH400 automatic. It still idled down to 850rpm and was very tractible on the street. What really made my car stand out was that I was running a low rise, oval port tri-power intake and carbs from a 67(only) 427 Vette, complete with that old triangle aircleaner! Quite the 'eye candy' when I went to the cruises! The bad thing was, when I still had the 4-spd and the 4.10 gears, it made too much power! I tried running it at the track but I'd just light up the tires until about half track. (I didn't have slicks back then) Believe it or not, the best ET I could manage through the exhaust was 14.00 but at 108mph!

Later on I ended up turning this car into a strip-only car and with this same engine got down to [email protected] Not bad for a hydraulic cammed 396, eh? Thn I ended up selling this car, turn key, with the trailer for only $2800 to help finance building my garage for the other cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
hey,

I think both those cams suck. In my opinion, 214/224 is too far a spread for the duration---unless you are going to run exhaust manifolds. I would reccomned no more the 5-6 degrees more exhaust duration. 214 degrees isn't going to do much for ya, you make more power by letting in more air/fuel, so you'l need more intake duration. I'd recommend about [email protected] on the intake to retain fair drivability. Anything over 230 will start to compromise drivability. Then with headers you can go single pattrn, and that will help save some low end torque by making the exhaust valve a little more "snappy".
Faster ramps are better and retain better drivability and higher vacuum at idle, so if you are looking for a cam with 225 @.050 the advertised duration shouldn't exceed 275-278.
For lobe seperation, 114 is pretty wide and will tend to make the engine seem sluggish when it revs. I'd go for about 110 for a good compromise. 112 would make for a sightly better idle if idle quality is really important to ya. 108 may have too much overlap and make for a really lumpy idle causing you to raise the idle speed to around 900, thus wasting fuel since driver spends a LOT of time idling. I usually find myself asking for a 111 lobe sep when I can't decide between 110 and 112.
I would go with a flat hydraulic cam, just get the recommended springs ad you won't have a prolem. But think about what rpm's you are going to turn and how old those valves are. 12's would be asking a lot from this amount of duration. You'll need about a 2800 stall convertor and a 4.11 gear to get close.
There is no question about are the heads capable of flowing enough, these are Cleveland 4v heads---the 2v heads would be sufficiant.
You may also want to check out the Funnelweb intake from Parker Racing---somewhat expensive, but it is the latest designed manifold for the Cleveland.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2001/04/funnelweb/index.shtml

I'd also recommend 2 1/2 duals with an "X" type cross over.

Hope this doesn't get you more confused,:angryfi:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,299 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
lol, no im not confused here. i kind of get it. but here is the thing..... does anyone make a cam like that?? short of a custom grind.... do you have a part number or anything that i can go check out?? im trying to do this on the cheap ( YES!! a world class contradiction there, but i know it can be done ) i plan on the 2 1/2 duals, but with full tailpipes with 2 chamber Flowmasters. ( they are cheap enough and i like the sound ) Does anyone make an X pipe that i can just buy for this application?? i really rather would not have to get the exhaust shop to make this, that might cost alot. i am intruiged by the X pipe, ive been debating that for a while now. but headers will be there, the Performer intake, still not sure about the carb ( I dont want to make a "Carbs o plenty" thread now lol ) will a 750 be overdoing it? 600 not enough?? or is the 670 i want better? ( WANT, not necessarily attainable for now, i might keep the stock one just to keep the car going for the time being ) let me know, me drink knowledge gooda lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
The Comp Magnum 270 looks like it'd fit your application pretty good. 224 degrees @.050 with a 110 lobe seperation.

As for the carb, well I have to say, since I used an Edelbrock, I'll never again go with a Holley for a street car. Maybe for a full race application. An Edelbrock/Carter is easy--real easy to tune and they hold the tune. I'd recommend the 750 for your motor. I have had a 600 and 750 on my Cleveland and didn't notice a difference between the two, as long as it is tuned it will have the performance efficiantly.
 

·
Contributing Sr Motorhead
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Carb requirements

At one time, Hot Rod Magazine gave a formula for selecting the proper carb for your application. It dealt with displacement, volumetric efficiency, max RPM, etc. I'm sure you can find that formula somewhere online. You'd be surprised at how many people over-carb their engines.

I knew a guy who had a mildly modified 327 Chevy in a Nova. He insisted it needed a 850CFM double pumper. :rolleyes: He couldn't understand why the car blew black smoke and fouled the plugs constantly.

My Beta Cat is a relatively stock 351C-4V, and as I noted before, the factory Ford speadbore carb and I didn't get along, along with the aluminum EGR plate was almost corroded through. Anyway, since this is a near-stock engine, and doesn't rev past 5200rpm (my shift point), it runs just fine with an original Ford GT390 600cfm Holley.

Alpha Cat is my street/strip 351C-4V. It sees a shade above 6200rpm, and has better breathing abilities both on the intake and exhaust side. It likes its old-style 780cfm Holley 3310.

Even my 396 Camaro race car that went through the eyes at 7000rpm only needed a 800cfm, jetted waaaaay down to 65s on the primary side and 70s on the secondary.

Now, I have to disagree with AOD about the single/dual pattern cam issue. Clevelands, especially the 4Vs have notoriously poor exhaust ports. The turn the exhaust has to make is too sharp and too much. That's why the serious racers milled off the ports and added a raised port section. If they were to stick with the stock ports, they actually blocked off the lower part of the ports with a sheet metal plate that had little tongues that entered the head port and made the radius less severe. These plates actually made the port smaller, but the overall flow increased. What I'm trying to say is that Clevelands especially need all the help they can get on the exhaust side. That's why I recommend a dual pattern cam with greater lift and duration on the exhaust side.

Anyway, you have to ask yourself what the primary use of your new engine will be. If you are going to spend 95+% on the street, go conservative. Your drivability will be much better in LA traffic. But hey, its your car!

Let me just say that I have surprised many a lumpy-cam ricky-racer with Beta Cat. A couple of guys in my old car club had 69 and 70 Mustangs with supposedly radical 351 engines. Funny thing is, that at the track they only ran low 14s and I was running 14.4s with my near-stocker. It gave them quite a scare! Like I said in an earlier post, Alpha Cat was an aftermarket mis-matched mess at one time and it only ran 14.4s. Too much duration in the cam, too much intake, nasty carb, etc. I have since wised up to the ways that actually work!
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top