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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well I got my 460 today! Now when I find a car to put it in I wll try to have it ready.

Now I'm not a BB expert so I'm open to sugestions on what to do with it.

Its a 78 with 40k actual miles on it with the c-6 trans. It belonged to some older friends of the guy I have been working for so I trust the story on the 40k miles. The car met its demise about a year ago with an incounter with a barrier wall on the expressway. Didnt get much invested for it either, as I traded a gas powered air compressor that I have not had any need for since I quit racing back in 94 for it.

So I'm open for suggestions on what to do with it. Before anyone says to get rid of the smog heads (there d3v's ) let me explain that I plan to do that but that can wait till down the road and funds build back up from doing the car. I'm thinking a set of eldebrocks would be nice! I have to change to a double sump pan anyway so I will check things out inside and any brgs and such will get replaced if needed. And the heads will come off and I'm thinking maybe some light work on the exhaust ports will be in order as well as getting the piss milled out of them to bump up the wimpy 8.5-1 compression. Or should I go with some flat tops now, but dont want too much compression with the Eldebrocks or early do's later.

Then I can take care of the factory cam retard at the same time I'm putting a new bumpstick in it. Something like 220 @.050 with a tight lobe seperation like 108-110 for the nasty idle. I'm used to circle track small block cams so I am listening for suggestions here. Then on top I'm looking for a manifold, maybe a performer as there are going to be hood clearance issues with a 750-800 vac secondary carb. Then there will be a set of shorty headers used. I plan on the duraspark dist and am open to suggestions on uprades to go along with that.

The c-6 I'm sure is in good shape but since my uncle dose transmissions we will open it up for inspection and a reseal and a shift kit and maybe a 2000 or so converter to go with the 3.25-3.50 gears for the back.

I think the drive pully setup needs to be changed and was looking at a march setup.

I posted a picture of it when I got it out of the truck today.

So tell me what you think. mm
 

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I just saw in the new Summit that Trick Flow released Heads and an Intake for 460's.

Those might be worth a look!
 

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OK MM, I'll bite on this one...

What is your intended use of this engine? What car, purpose, weight, gearing, etc. I'm suspecting a Fox chassis since you say you need a double sump oil pan.

Second, it was not the camshaft that was retarded on the 429/460s but the crank sprocket on the timing set. You'll need a timing set for a 68-71 429 if you want a 'straight-up' timing set. The 72-later was retarded 4 degrees.

To raise compression, I'd go with a set of flat top pistons right off the bat. Also, you have to remember thatFord added to the deck height of the block almost every year for the first couple of years in an effort to lower the compression. The 68-70 1/2 had 10.300, with the late 70s having 10.310 and the 72-later all had the deck height of 10.322. Therefore you can safely have the deck of the block milled to raise your compression without running into any problems.

Too bad you had your heart set on a 460. I just gave away the 429 I had laying around. I had done a budget rebuild just 10,000 miles before the frame got soft on the old station wagon. It had TRW forged flat tops w/ one valve relief (429 CJ replacement pistons), a nice mild Crane cam and, while it was just sitting there, I was practicing my porting skills. My heads were 1972 castings without the air passages for a thermactor. That meant that I could go nuts on the exhaust side and grind out both the thermactor bump and the raised portion that would have allowed for the front-to-back air passage through the head. The guy I gave the engine to just wanted the block so he still has the rotating assembly and heads if you're interested! Act quick if you do since I think he plans to scrap the rest soon!

The selection of shorty headers sucks for the Lima engines. If you are going to be running the 460 in a Fox chassis, that is a popular swap and just about all header manufacturers have headers for you.

Intake manifold selection? Weiand Stealth or Edelbrock Performer. Both of these are good up to 6000rpm, and I doubt you'll want to wing yours any higher than that. In fact, the stock-type pistons (including forged replacements) are very heavy and will do nasty things if revved anything over 6000. Therefore, I'd recommend a high lift dual-pattern cam that has a powerband not higher than 6000. That's the beauty of running Big Blocks! Use the torque to accelerate you, not RPM!

Milo
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Cj, You have not been paying attention!!! I will need the double sump pan for the Mustang II front suspension I'm going to be using in the next car!:D

Further I looked at what I wrote and I can see how you would think I was saying that the cam was retarded when in fact I do know that its the timing gear that was doing the cam retarding. But the truth is it was a 8 deg retard!!! But you are correct that it was done starting in 72.

I went here: http://reincarnation-automotive.com/ and found a wealth of info on the 429-460 cyl heads. And according to the site above they had a couple of castings in 72 so I maybe interested in the 429 heads depending on which ones they are. Think you can find out? If there D2OE-AA or D2OE-AB these would be desiralble. If there D2VE-A2A there not as good as I have.
This motor has the D3VE-A2A heads which at least have the bathtub chambers.

I had thought about going to the flat top pistons, but the truth is if this engine looks good when it gets opened up I probably wasnt going to do a overhaul and if I did happen to find a early set of heads the flat tops could raise the compression up higher than I would like.

So watching the nickles and dimes I thought that a mill job on these heads might make the 9.5-1. Whats your thoughts on this?


For a cam I agree with the dual pattern thinking. In fact I have a line on one thats 280 and 290 adv duration 214 and 224 @.050, lift is 510 and 536 and a lobe seperation of 112. Whats the thought on this? I'm really used to running cams with lobe sep's down around 105-106 so this seems wide to me and was thinking maybe should be 110? But maybe the 112 is ok.

How tall is the Weiand stealth?? I have run some Weiand xcellerators(dont think thats spelled right LOL) in the past with fine results so am not opposed to one if its not too high.

Basically I just want a motor for messing around with that can still be put out on the highway with out any troubles but with enough power to dig in and go. Thats why I'm going with the BB to begin with along with the AHHH factor when the hood is raised. mm
 

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Welcome to the world of torque, Mark!

Well, I certainly don't know all there is to know about BBFs- until this one I always had SBFs. However, i do know what is in mine and why I made the selections that I did.
AS Milo said, you don't want to be winding that thing up to produce power. I built mine with a redline of 6K in mind. In fact, that is what my rev limiter is set for. I designed mine after Ford's 460 "CJ" 496HP Street/Strip crate motor.
I used aluminum heads to save weight on the front end and because i the long run they were cheaper that rebuilding my stock iron ones. I chose the Edelbrock Heads because I had heard good things about them and not such good things about Ford's aluminum CJs. I used TRW flattop pistons with the "big" chamber (95cc) to keeep the compression at about 9-9.5 so that I can run pump gas.
Ford uses the Edelbrock Performer RPM intake on their crate, so that was an easy choice.
Ford's camshaft is .562"/.588" and 234*/244* @ .050. I looked for a similar grind (after I gave up trying to afford a roller cam) and came up with one that is .556"/.581" 234*/244* @.050.
Used a good double row chain and gear for an early 429 and degreed it in.
For carburation I went with an Edelbrock 750. Ford uses an 850 on theirs, but this leaves me room for expansion as this one gets "slow" over time - as all engines eventually do. I went with Edelbrock instead of Holley because I was sick of messing with Holleys and after talking to lots of Edelbrock users that switched from Holley decided to give it a try.
I also put in Harland Sharp roller rockers, a windage tray, melling Hi-vol oil pump, MSD distributor with 6AL box.
 

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MM,

Good web site link! That site lists more castings than listed in the HP Books Ford V-8 Engines book by Tom Monroe. I was porting my heads with an Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball since I don't have access to a flow bench. I guess I had done mine wrong since I rounded the short side radius too early after the valve seat. I had also ground away the vane after the guide boss. The biggest thing I was after was getting rid of the Thermactor bump and passage and smoothing out the sidewalls where the headbolts and manifold bolts intrude. I couldn't even get my finger up the exhaust port before, but now they're wide open.

My buddies that are racing the 460-based derivitives are using the Ford Motorsport heads. They haven't had any problems related to the heads. There were three basic chamber volume heads for the 429/460. The 68-71 had 75.8cc, the 72-74 were 91.4, and the 75-up D4VEs were 96.2. Maybe that will help you with your casting decision.

When Keith was racing a 'stock' 460, he had a problem with pistons and rods coming apart at higher RPMs. They're now running aftermarket steel H-beam rods and lightweight pistons. The normal Lima rod is has a broach cut where the head of the rod bolt is. That is the weak point. CJ rods are spotfaced (drilled) and leave more meat in this area. Keith also tried aluminum rods but they broke after just 60 passes. And like I had said before in the earlier post, the stock-type pistons are too heavy for high rpm usage. You'll need to go with lightweight forgings if you want the engine to live a long life.

One thing I'll mention about any engine that will see regular duty above 5200rpm is to use better rod bolts!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Bob that motor sounds great! I think the flattops might be in order and since the motor is low milage it might just take a set of standards and a hone job, that I can do myself. I'm thinking about a set of hyperutectics instead of forged though. I had forgot about the eldebrock heads being availabe in the big chambers so the flat tops would be fine if I went that way down the road and would be a good improvement for now with the heads I have. Also I think you will like the Eldebrock carb, I know I like em.


Cj, I thought you would like that website! But you didnt say what you can find out about the 429 heads you gave away! Also you didnt say anything about the cam specs, but compared to what Bob,s running it should be fine with the stock heads for now. I also agree that the good rod bolts are cheap insurance and belive it or not when I was racing I used to change them reguarly as I would not torque a set over 2-3 times before changing them (like freshing up a motor only once before new bolts were used) mm
 

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MM,

Those heads and stuff I gave away are at my buddy's house and they are out of town this weekend. (Norwalk is having their 30th Halloween Classic). They ran just the first round of all classes yesterday, running late into the night. Then today they run the rest of the eliminations. Very big event. Close to 1000 race cars! I should be able to get any parts you'd want. How 'bout a set of nice forged 429 flat top pistons for free! They are .030 over though.

The cam I was using in my '72 429-powered 78 Country Squire wagon was more geared toward towing. It was the old Crane 260 Econopower ( www.cranecams.com ). I think the specs were .487/.518 lift, 260/272 adv dur, 204/[email protected] The 460 in the wife's old 77 Marquis got the house-brand cam from Summit ( www.summitracing.com ) That listed at .479/.504" lift and 204/214 duration at .050. Just a mild cam, but better than the stock 429/460's .443/.486" lift cam. With these cams, full duals and just 3.00 or 3.25 gearing, both these heavy cars were able to fry posi if I mashed the skinny pedal!
 

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If you plan on driving around the street, I'd recomend no more then 225 degrees @ .050 with a wider lobe sep to keep the better idle--no less then 110---unless you want to make it sound good at idle. I went with 113 on my cam that I have yet to install. I'd recomend not going higher on the duration then 230 since you will be limited to about 5500 as the highest near-safe rpm with stock rods. Anymore cam would begin to take away from bottom end. Unfortunately the the broached or straight-cut rod is the most common and is not made for performance--just slow cruising Lincolns. Scott J's website (reincarnation.com) is very informative. I plan on using the D3VE's on my next motor because the earlier casting just don't have enough chamber and I want to use 87 octane. The D2VE's are what I have now, and they are the worst of the 460 heads with their open chamber.
The Weiand Stealth is a prety tall intake. it was about the same height as my Victor 460. If you are only going to 5500 now, you may just want to use a Performer, but in all actuallity, the stock manifold makes more torque below 3000 then any aftermarket manifold.
I run the Edelbrock 800 carb, and it worked great right out of the boix---like most edelbrocks.
YOu may just want to leave a stock convertor in the trans. It will help aid in traction---somewhat. You'll already be at a roll by the time the engine starts to reach it's torque band. I have a stock convertor behind my 460 and on the dyno the car made 400 ft lbs at the rear wheels and it doens't spin much at all on the street.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the reply Mark. If you go to my second reply in this thread I outlined a com I have a line on. Sounds like its right in line with your reccomendations. You really think the stock converter would be alright with that cam? If so that would be alright and leave some money to be spent elseware.

I'm leaning on just using the D3VE's that I have, just doing some minor port work and doing something else with the pedastal rocker setup along with maybe some bigger valves. That is unless I happen to find a buy on some early heads at the Columbus swap next month and that would seal the deal on staying with the dish pistons.

I had a hunch the Wieand intake maybe too tall so I will be looking for a performer. Also good to hear on the Eldebrock 800, as thats pretty much what I had in mind for it also. mm
 

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Rotating assembly?

I would love to have them, to bad I'm nowhere near.
I started to rebuild a 429, once inside found a piece of a piston skirt, jammed inside the broken lip of an exhaust valve.
I guess you are right about the rpm limits/weight factor.
I am doing the fox body/429 thing, and have found a B&M blower cowl hood that fits the stealth/predator combo really nicely. Its really tall and hard to see around/ over, but looks real good.
The 429/460 makes a boatload of torque down low, sweet spot seems to be at 3,000 to 3,500 RPM. Can't wait to get it back together and try a new cam. I was useing the comp 280 magnum as advertised. Anyone out there ever used a crane in a BBF? I saw a new ad for the Saturday night special, Hydr, 288-292 degrees adv dur, and .522-.535 at .050. It looks very inviteing. The kit cost $225 as advertised. any input here? Maybe to much without the addition of some other upgrades, that I need/want/cannot afford...
Thanks for the info...:bandit: :evil: :pimp: :sun: :xoli: :ylsup:
 

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mm- I have an old car-craft mag from about 20 years ago that has a nice build-up of a street 460. It uses old school techniques, and makes 500plus hp. It uses D0VE heads flat tops, and a 292 solid cam. Healthy exaust porting, but nothing at all fancy. I've been wanting to try this build-up for years. Incidentally, the D0VE heads are already tapped for screw-in-studs, as well as tight chambers for compression. I can scan it and send it to you if you are interested.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
toploader, Sounds interesting but the thing is with Dove heads and flat tops the compression gets high in a hurry! I want to be able to use pump gas as this motor will be a driver. Wouldnt mind seeing it though.

LiLWrink, I figure I may have to cut the hood, but I dont care the Eliminator hood scoop will cover it. mm
 

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mark how about a paxton i would love to see it blown. that 69 is still there for 1000.00 no vinal top but no glass but i can give you arear glass if you come to get it. i dont know though if it has the front grile to it but the bumpers were inside the cab. the driver fender would need a little smoothing nothing bad but overall it may be what your looking for. the motor and tranny are still in it which i know you could care less about but it is a roller and it looks like very little rust on undercarriage like my xr7. if your truly interested i can take some pictures and iquire a bit more.
 

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Walkin' Tall!

TopLoader- I also would like to see that article. I've seen several articles in the past, but am particularly interested in the 429-460 buildup. I love to read about the things I'm wanting to do.
The reason I'm building this 429 again is the last time I did this, it was a very stock build with the exception of the cam, on the short block. I'm useing the DOVE heads and I had to have mine machined for the screw in studs, I also have the Harland Sharp 1:73 roller rockers. But I got a little carried away one weekend and had a friend who said "Hey I'll loan you my Big Shot of N2O to use this Sunday at the track" A highly educational program on an accelerated curve (so to speak). I found that a motor will rev much faster than normal when on the juice. I also learned that 385(Lima) series Fords do not act so gracefuly when at high RPM's. The list includes burnt rings and pistons, a broke piston skirt, which in turn ate a valve, and Ironicly yesterday was telling a friend that I had posted a reply to the nitrous thread, and he told me where 2 pairs of 429 heads were. I went and bought them yesterdy afternoon. one pair of C9VE, and one pair of DOVE.
So now I'm putting my 85LX back together.
I was running the .70 index that pass and broke out with a high .6... useing a 33x10.5 Micky, that was last year.

Back on the subject, my heads have 72cc chambers(I think) and were 11:00 compression heads. I never had any trouble out of them clattering, but I also use 104 octane boost when raceing.
The Edlebrock must be considerably shorter than the stealth, or the motor must sit lower in the cougar than the fox body, or something, I'm here to tell you that baby sits really tall in the fox body. the B&M blower hood looks like a 6"cowl with the scoop from an 82-3 GT mounted backwards on top of that, open front and back. Useing a Moroso 3" tall breather on a holley 750 DBLPumper it just barely fits. (Clears by 1/2 inch)
MM-Where did you post that picture? And can you tell me any thing about the Crane 292 cam? I'm thinking about building more compression, and trying to get bigger and badder...

Shane:ylsup: :ylsup: :ylsup: :ylsup:
 

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Shane, (or anyone)

If you want the 429CJ pistons that I had (TRW Forged flat tops, one valve relief .030 oversize), I'll be glad to ship them to you. The rods I used were nothing special, just the stock junk passenger car rods and they were never reconditioned. The crank was never turned either, so this engine had low oil pressure (20psi at idle) but OK at anything above 1500rpm. This motor was put together for low-budget towing duty in my 78 Country Squire that originally had a 351M/FMX!

What I'm getting at is that only the pistons areworth anything.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
LiLWrink, What picture you talking about??

Cj, I'm going to try to get the motor on the stand later this week and get the pan and heads off and see what I got.

Cougarguy, A couple pictures wouldnt hurt if you get by there. Dose it run? There cheaper to ship that way. Been playing phone tag the last two days with a guy that has a 70 that dont sound bad. Maybe I'll catch him tomorrow. mm
 

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i dont think it runs at all. it looked liek someones project and they had to unload it. military towns are like that.
 

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Article

toploader said:
mm- I have an old car-craft mag from about 20 years ago that has a nice build-up of a street 460. It uses old school techniques, and makes 500plus hp. It uses D0VE heads flat tops, and a 292 solid cam. Healthy exaust porting, but nothing at all fancy. I've been wanting to try this build-up for years. Incidentally, the D0VE heads are already tapped for screw-in-studs, as well as tight chambers for compression. I can scan it and send it to you if you are interested.

This is what I was saying that Id like to see. I also have an old Hot Rod article called "The Ford From Hell" that outlines a 460 build. I wish I had a didgital camera! I've spent all my money on junk iron!(LOL)

I'm always looking for the good deals, what are you asking for the .030 pistons?

MM- just a thought, if the eliminator scoop doesnt quite clear, maybe you could try a Boss 429 scoop?

I looked my heads over a little more closely after cleaning them up and discoverd one of my C9VE heads has a break in the exhaust port flange. (Bummer!) im haveing it looked at to see if it can be welded.

Shane:xoli:
 
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