Small Block Dual Quad Manifold
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Leon,
There are three different intakes available brand new. Reproductions of the original Ford / Shelby, Edelbrock and Offenhauser. Several others were made in the past.
I recommend the original Ford / Shelby unit. Carbs for this application are also being reproduced. It makes a very responsive street setup, you need an appropriate camshaft and good exhaust system.
Look here:
http://www.carlsfordparts.com
Carl does not have the intakes on his website but can get you a deal on the whole setup.
Tony Branda is the other vendor to check, I don't know the url.
There are three different intakes available brand new. Reproductions of the original Ford / Shelby, Edelbrock and Offenhauser. Several others were made in the past.
I recommend the original Ford / Shelby unit. Carbs for this application are also being reproduced. It makes a very responsive street setup, you need an appropriate camshaft and good exhaust system.
Look here:
http://www.carlsfordparts.com
Carl does not have the intakes on his website but can get you a deal on the whole setup.
Tony Branda is the other vendor to check, I don't know the url.
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Royce -
thanks. I only need manifold as we are looking at dual propane set-up
Tony site is www.cobranda.com
thanks. I only need manifold as we are looking at dual propane set-up
Tony site is www.cobranda.com
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I checked, Carl does have the intake on his site pictured:
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Leon,
You are adding dual nitrous plates, right????
Bill
You are adding dual nitrous plates, right????
Bill
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Bill - just propane carbs instead of traditional four barrels, although nitrous would be fun.
I'd still prefer to run the blown lexus but the lexus autobox can't handle the horse power and positive vacuum from the sprintex blower
I'd still prefer to run the blown lexus but the lexus autobox can't handle the horse power and positive vacuum from the sprintex blower
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dual quads
For Dual Quads, I take edelbrock over all the others all day long.
Ever think of a tunnel ram for the LPG?
For Dual Quads, I take edelbrock over all the others all day long.
Ever think of a tunnel ram for the LPG?
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The Edelbrock kind of sucks because it has the carbs spaced too close together to use any of the "Running Cat" air cleaners because it was designed to accept Carter AFB carbs. The factory Ford / Shelby / Cougar / Tiger / Cobra lettered intakes can use either Holley or Carter carbs and have the correct center to center orientation to use the factory 8V air cleaners.
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From what I am aware of, the orientation of the edelbrock piece is superior to the ford/offy in terms of Carb placement. The different placement of the carbs is from a cad designed intake as opposed to the old offy and ford parts that were designed in the 60's, and compormised to fit holleys on the intake with a straight linkage setup. The holleys were too long and had to be turned sideways.
As for the running cat breather, any sheet metal shop worth its salt can make a new bottom for the dual quad breather you were speaking about, and inexpensively too. But those oval pieces don't have a significant increase in surface area over the standard round ones. Something to try might be a repo tri-power or dual-quad triangle shape. Then, you can really get some surface area.
Or, just make an air box around the carb a-la the Trans AM Boss 302 cars and duct the carbs to a more modern rectangular piece that can be serviced anywhere. It'll give you a chance to bring in low pressure, cooler, more dense air from elsewhere in the car. Form follows function, right?
Also, using carter/Edelbrock carbs on the edelbrock intake doesn't require complex/oddball linkage that can and will bind under the right conditions. They can be lined straight up on the intake and use an inline linkage system. This simplifies it a bit.
However, the fuel inlet on the edelbrock does have that 90 degree fitting that you'll have to work around if you use them.
But then, I'm a big fan of Edelbrock stuff in general.
cheers
As for the running cat breather, any sheet metal shop worth its salt can make a new bottom for the dual quad breather you were speaking about, and inexpensively too. But those oval pieces don't have a significant increase in surface area over the standard round ones. Something to try might be a repo tri-power or dual-quad triangle shape. Then, you can really get some surface area.
Or, just make an air box around the carb a-la the Trans AM Boss 302 cars and duct the carbs to a more modern rectangular piece that can be serviced anywhere. It'll give you a chance to bring in low pressure, cooler, more dense air from elsewhere in the car. Form follows function, right?
Also, using carter/Edelbrock carbs on the edelbrock intake doesn't require complex/oddball linkage that can and will bind under the right conditions. They can be lined straight up on the intake and use an inline linkage system. This simplifies it a bit.
However, the fuel inlet on the edelbrock does have that 90 degree fitting that you'll have to work around if you use them.
But then, I'm a big fan of Edelbrock stuff in general.
cheers
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I think you are confused. The Edelbrock 8V intake was developed about the same time as the Ford / Cobra/ Cougar / Tiger / Shelby lettered units and was available about 1964. Cad design was not available although Lockheed was developing it at that time in their Burbank "Skunk" works. The Edelbrock 8V small block Ford intakes available new right now from Edelbrock are no different from the ones sold back then.
The Edelbrock carbs are inferior in any conceivable comparison method such as horsepower production, parts availability, selection, tuneability. Go to any race track anywhere, if the class requires a carburetor there won't be an Edelbrock or Carter in sight except maybe at the car show in the parking lot.
Take a brief look at the Cobra intake in the picture I posted above. The carbs are not turned sideways. They are Holley carbs. And they work fabulous.
How many 8V setups have you installed?
The Edelbrock carbs are inferior in any conceivable comparison method such as horsepower production, parts availability, selection, tuneability. Go to any race track anywhere, if the class requires a carburetor there won't be an Edelbrock or Carter in sight except maybe at the car show in the parking lot.
Take a brief look at the Cobra intake in the picture I posted above. The carbs are not turned sideways. They are Holley carbs. And they work fabulous.
How many 8V setups have you installed?
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I am really just looking for the wow factor of having dual quad set-up running on LPG. Didn't want to start a war and performance isn't an issue with a standard convertible.
My preference is still to run the supercharged lexus v8 if I can find someone to figure out the transmission computer under positive pressure
Only 8v set-ups I've played with are Webers and now I wish I still had my weber manifolds, particularly the H&M and Car Craft stuff
My preference is still to run the supercharged lexus v8 if I can find someone to figure out the transmission computer under positive pressure
Only 8v set-ups I've played with are Webers and now I wish I still had my weber manifolds, particularly the H&M and Car Craft stuff
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simmer down royce!
Royce ,
Simmer down dubyuh. Nobody's trying to rain on your parade or call your experience into question or account. I am definitely not trying to start a flame war here on the cougar message boards.
First of all, go reread my post. I wasn't attacking you. I was just explaining why I prefer what I prefer. I mean, I'm the new guy here, but I thought that was generally okay in the USA. The reasons you gave for refuting edelbrock are the same logic skills I have to refute at the track from the Small block chevy contingent when they see my ford product.
The Edelbrock vs. Holley debate rages on everywhere you go these days.
In my opinion, the Holley/Demon contingent are the blessed children of decades of collective intelligence. Meaning that, more people have wrenched on, written books about, screwed up, and gotten it right with the Holley set up. So, there's a bigger base of knowledge.
No racer worth his salt is going to take a product that is unproven when the relative big bucks are on the line. Like a Carter, Quadrajet, Autolite, or Stromberg carburetor. Incidentally, I run a 600 edelbrock on my cleveland powered cougar and have road raced, drag raced, street raced, and driven cross country in it for the last 16 years. And I've collected contingency money in the process from edelbrock. I may not have a garage full of 427 cars, but I have had the same test bed and engine for the last 16 years. And it doesn't get much more scientific than that, does it?
Of course when you get away from the regular Holley speres of influence where the fans eat fried chicken and get drunk in the stands, you get away from Holley products into more sophisticated carbs like solex, CV, Keihin, Mikuni, and Weber. Not to say that Holleys can't be found on lots of SCCA or IMSA cars, but try to find a 911 Porsche with a 750DP on it. Even cleveland powered panteras tend to go with a weber setup.
Enough bench racing. Back to dual quads...
The modern Edelbrock intake was redesigned with a CAD system. And, it is identical to the original on the outside, since they got it right the first time in terms of carb placement. Since Edel. had rights to the Carter carb, they kept the design and made a package out of it instead of compromising for Holleys. Which is what happens when you space the carbs farther apart and adjust intake floor and both runner length and attitude in exchange for glam. According to my Edelbrock rep, that is. But he just may be in the dark. ;-)
Anyway, my point was that the Edelbrock carbs are easier to service in terms of metering rod change versus jet change, no gaskets below fuel level, and their physical design makes use with any d/q intake possible, not just one or two, due to linkage friendly design. This might bring up important factors for someone considering alternative fuels in an induction setup. Or someone wanting a simple way to set up a street system, which is what it sounded like to me. Kind of the kiss principle, if you will.
I'm not dissing Holley. With their history, that would be foolish. I'm just offering another way to go.
Now, Leon you said you are using special carbs for the fuel. You just need to determine body size in relation to the intake to rule out the Edelbrock intake and then your decision is easy. Flip a coin and pick Ford or Offy. They both work about the same. If the carbs fit the Edelbrock piece, then your choice is more difficult. But, either way, you get your dual quads.
And if you are using a centrifugal blower on the Lexus engine, you can call Vortech and ask for some leads on who can reprogram the computer for you so you can use the trannie. There are lots of guys hot-rodding lexus engines these days. Or pick up some import tuner mags and leaf through them. There are lots of reprogrammers working on ricers. And the Lexus is a ricey V8.
cheers
kraven
Royce
,Simmer down dubyuh. Nobody's trying to rain on your parade or call your experience into question or account. I am definitely not trying to start a flame war here on the cougar message boards.
First of all, go reread my post. I wasn't attacking you. I was just explaining why I prefer what I prefer. I mean, I'm the new guy here, but I thought that was generally okay in the USA. The reasons you gave for refuting edelbrock are the same logic skills I have to refute at the track from the Small block chevy contingent when they see my ford product.
The Edelbrock vs. Holley debate rages on everywhere you go these days.
In my opinion, the Holley/Demon contingent are the blessed children of decades of collective intelligence. Meaning that, more people have wrenched on, written books about, screwed up, and gotten it right with the Holley set up. So, there's a bigger base of knowledge.
No racer worth his salt is going to take a product that is unproven when the relative big bucks are on the line. Like a Carter, Quadrajet, Autolite, or Stromberg carburetor. Incidentally, I run a 600 edelbrock on my cleveland powered cougar and have road raced, drag raced, street raced, and driven cross country in it for the last 16 years. And I've collected contingency money in the process from edelbrock. I may not have a garage full of 427 cars, but I have had the same test bed and engine for the last 16 years. And it doesn't get much more scientific than that, does it?
Of course when you get away from the regular Holley speres of influence where the fans eat fried chicken and get drunk in the stands, you get away from Holley products into more sophisticated carbs like solex, CV, Keihin, Mikuni, and Weber. Not to say that Holleys can't be found on lots of SCCA or IMSA cars, but try to find a 911 Porsche with a 750DP on it. Even cleveland powered panteras tend to go with a weber setup.
Enough bench racing. Back to dual quads...
The modern Edelbrock intake was redesigned with a CAD system. And, it is identical to the original on the outside, since they got it right the first time in terms of carb placement. Since Edel. had rights to the Carter carb, they kept the design and made a package out of it instead of compromising for Holleys. Which is what happens when you space the carbs farther apart and adjust intake floor and both runner length and attitude in exchange for glam. According to my Edelbrock rep, that is. But he just may be in the dark. ;-)
Anyway, my point was that the Edelbrock carbs are easier to service in terms of metering rod change versus jet change, no gaskets below fuel level, and their physical design makes use with any d/q intake possible, not just one or two, due to linkage friendly design. This might bring up important factors for someone considering alternative fuels in an induction setup. Or someone wanting a simple way to set up a street system, which is what it sounded like to me. Kind of the kiss principle, if you will.
I'm not dissing Holley. With their history, that would be foolish. I'm just offering another way to go.
Now, Leon you said you are using special carbs for the fuel. You just need to determine body size in relation to the intake to rule out the Edelbrock intake and then your decision is easy. Flip a coin and pick Ford or Offy. They both work about the same. If the carbs fit the Edelbrock piece, then your choice is more difficult. But, either way, you get your dual quads.
And if you are using a centrifugal blower on the Lexus engine, you can call Vortech and ask for some leads on who can reprogram the computer for you so you can use the trannie. There are lots of guys hot-rodding lexus engines these days. Or pick up some import tuner mags and leaf through them. There are lots of reprogrammers working on ricers. And the Lexus is a ricey V8.
cheers
kraven
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Man, I think you are trying too hard. Porshes and what? This is the Mercury Cougar Dot Net forum. I watched a lawn mower race on TV the other day, guys had souped up riding mowers. None of them had Holley carbs either.
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kraventhearcher I'd much prefer some 44IDFs on my 302s - much the same set up that was run on 69/70 trans-am boss cars - once you pay out the national debt to get all 8 venturis set up correctly.
This is the set-up that is intended for my 68 coupe next year - about 2/3 down the page http://www.motorsportworld.com.au/outlets/bobromano/
All the advantages of injection with the sexiness of webers
Any of the dual 4 manifolds mentioned should work as the propane carbs have standard 4 barrel Holley / Edelbrock / Carter base. Guess it will come down to price, looks and availability in Oz
This is the set-up that is intended for my 68 coupe next year - about 2/3 down the page http://www.motorsportworld.com.au/outlets/bobromano/
All the advantages of injection with the sexiness of webers
Any of the dual 4 manifolds mentioned should work as the propane carbs have standard 4 barrel Holley / Edelbrock / Carter base. Guess it will come down to price, looks and availability in Oz
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11,000 Posts
Leon,
The Weber carbs were never legal in the United States for the Trans Am series races or the Group II series that preceded it. The rules for Group II Cougars in 1967 allowed dual 4V induction so the teams used the best performing setup, the Ford intake with two 450 CFM Holleys.
In 1968 the 302 Tunnel Port engine was used, rules allowed 8V induction so a Ford manifold with dual Holleys was selected.
In 1969 the Boss 302 was raced with dual Holley Dominators in 950 CFM configuration. Ford attemted to homologate the Autolite inline 4V in both single and dual configurations but SCCA would not allow it.
1970 rules allowed for a single 4V carburetor so the Bud Moore intake was used with a single 1050 CFM Holley Dominator carb (some sources say 1100CFM).
Here's all the Weber setups you could ever want. Small block Ford setups start around $3900 (United States currency).
http://www.inglese.com/fordv8.htm
The Weber carbs were never legal in the United States for the Trans Am series races or the Group II series that preceded it. The rules for Group II Cougars in 1967 allowed dual 4V induction so the teams used the best performing setup, the Ford intake with two 450 CFM Holleys.
In 1968 the 302 Tunnel Port engine was used, rules allowed 8V induction so a Ford manifold with dual Holleys was selected.
In 1969 the Boss 302 was raced with dual Holley Dominators in 950 CFM configuration. Ford attemted to homologate the Autolite inline 4V in both single and dual configurations but SCCA would not allow it.
1970 rules allowed for a single 4V carburetor so the Bud Moore intake was used with a single 1050 CFM Holley Dominator carb (some sources say 1100CFM).
Here's all the Weber setups you could ever want. Small block Ford setups start around $3900 (United States currency).
http://www.inglese.com/fordv8.htm
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Royce - interesting because the Car Craft and H&M cars that were prepared for the FIA regulations in Oz ran webers, initially 2 x sidedraft DCOEs in 1969 and then in 1970 4 x IDAs or IDFs.
Guess there was a difference between what got homologated with the FIA and what SCCA allowed them to run
Guess there was a difference between what got homologated with the FIA and what SCCA allowed them to run
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I read an article on Allen Moffat's Boss 302 and its escapades in your fair country, that's what I remember about it too.
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Leon,
I don't blame you. The webers are awesome to see and to hear at full throttle!
Good Luck with it.
Kraven
I don't blame you. The webers are awesome to see and to hear at full throttle!
Good Luck with it.
Kraven
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