Mercury Cougar Owners banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,578 Posts
You need the valley spider and dogbones and you need the lifters that go with that (along with a cam). I have a brand new set of Comp 851-16 lifters and the spider and dogbones I would like to sell. I will sell cheaper than you can find them anywhere. Let me know if you are interested.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,144 Posts
Using spider and dogbones requires the custom reduced base circle cam. Using the expensive lifters let's you use a standard cam. It's almost a wash in price so consider the whole cost before deciding.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,578 Posts
Using spider and dogbones requires the custom reduced base circle cam. Using the expensive lifters let's you use a standard cam. It's almost a wash in price so consider the whole cost before deciding.
I have heard this before but wondering, what then is the stock cam in a 5.0 roller motor considered? Reduced base circle? Should be the same situation, no? If yes, then any 5.0 roller cam (which should be reasonably priced) should be useable with the setup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
543 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
What would be the proper "expensive lifters"?

It might be more cost effective the get a junkyard motor. Weighing my options. If the inside of the current engine looks as good as the outside, it may be cheaper to install a roller cam.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,578 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,598 Posts
The Morel lifters are a joint venture between us and Morel (Gearcoa). http://johncalliesinc.com/product.php?ProductNo=5323 Morel makes the bodies and we do the machining and hydralic assembly or mechincal assembly. Then Morel finishes them with the bearing and link bar install. The C clip that retains the axle bearing is my design from the early 90's used on the Chrysler 5.2L/5.9L engines. That was originally a cast body and the axle peening process would develop cracks. The C clip is much more robust and we use it on all axle bearing retension now. Just did some print updates a couple weeks ago on the lifters.

Using spider and dogbones requires the custom reduced base circle cam. Using the expensive lifters let's you use a standard cam. It's almost a wash in price so consider the whole cost before deciding. Correct! Otherwise, the top lifter land will be exposed out of the top of the lifter bore and you will lose oil pressure.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,578 Posts
The Morel lifters are a joint venture between us and Morel (Gearcoa). http://johncalliesinc.com/product.php?ProductNo=5323 Morel makes the bodies and we do the machining and hydralic assembly or mechincal assembly. Then Morel finishes them with the bearing and link bar install. The C clip that retains the axle bearing is my design from the early 90's used on the Chrysler 5.2L/5.9L engines. That was originally a cast body and the axle peening process would develop cracks. The C clip is much more robust and we use it on all axle bearing retension now. Just did some print updates a couple weeks ago on the lifters.

Using spider and dogbones requires the custom reduced base circle cam. Using the expensive lifters let's you use a standard cam. It's almost a wash in price so consider the whole cost before deciding. Correct! Otherwise, the top lifter land will be exposed out of the top of the lifter bore and you will lose oil pressure.
Okay, but what about stock and performance replacement 5.0 roller cams? Are they considered reduced base circle? If no, how does the setup work with the dogbone lifter setup? If yes, wouldn't this be an inexpensive source for a reduced base circle cam for a 302/5.0?

I have no dog in this fight (other than my desire to sell a couple of parts that are surplus to my needs) but am curious to know/understand what the deal is with this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,598 Posts
Okay, but what about stock and performance replacement 5.0 roller cams? Are they considered reduced base circle? If no, how does the setup work with the dogbone lifter setup? If yes, wouldn't this be an inexpensive source for a reduced base circle cam for a 302/5.0?

I have no dog in this fight (other than my desire to sell a couple of parts that are surplus to my needs) but am curious to know/understand what the deal is with this.
Okay, but what about stock and performance replacement 5.0 roller cams? Are they considered reduced base circle? No

how does the setup work with the dogbone lifter setup? In the "non roller" block you need the reduced base circle cam, or the lifters with the link bar.

I order to use the lifters and dog bones/retainer you have Bob in a "non roller" block you need the smaller base circle cam. Your lifter and dog bone /retainer will work in a "roller block" with a stock base circle cam.

Non roller block: The distance from camshaft centeline to the center of the oil gallery is shorter as a flat face lifter is shorter (no roller bearing adding to the height). So, in order to install a roller cam into a non roller block you have two options:

1. Smaller base circle cam which gives you more distance to the center of the oil gallery for the added height of the roller lifter. You can use stock lifters and dog bone retainers.

2. Roller lifters with the link bar which allows the lands on the lifter to be lower on the lifter body to maintain the correct distance to the center of the oil gallery.

Roller blocks have a longer distance from camshaft centerline to the center of the lifter oil gallery.

I should have some link bar lifters sent to me in the next couple of weeks. I'll take a picture of one next to a stock roller lifter and you will see the differance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,598 Posts
thats still an expensive proposition
Yes, but the added benefit with the link bar lifters is your not limited on cam choice.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,578 Posts
Got it Brian, thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Might be cheaper to get a newer 351w roller block or, the ones that can be made a roller....more cubes more power. Consider a cheaper route
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,144 Posts
Okay, but what about stock and performance replacement 5.0 roller cams? Are they considered reduced base circle?
Roller block has taller cast bores in it so "standard" roller cam is used. Any Ford "Roller" block (351 or 302) can use a standard roller. Early non-roller blocks need the RBC cam.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,950 Posts
We built a motor with the lifter bars back when they first came out and it was a pretty good solution. It was a car that was primarily street driven - but she performed pretty well at the track on weekends. I guess the tipping point is how much you have invested in the motor and if you know it's a good solid block. In our case we already had a good chunk tied up in the motor and it was just more icing on the cake. We had the high dollar stuff already covered and were committed to staying with a 28 0z balance setup. Going to a modern 50 oz setup might make sense if you don't have anything invested and find a reasonable priced one laying around which should not prove difficult. (I see a 408 stroked motor on my CL right now for $1000 for instance....can't beat that )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
543 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Might be cheaper to get a newer 351w roller block or, the ones that can be made a roller....more cubes more power. Consider a cheaper route
What year would that be? Ford no longer makes a 351W, right? Remember I have a Pick-n-pull near me and I know I can get a 2000'ish 302 roller for $150.00.

but...........

If the current block I have has little miles on it and the cylinders look smooth, no ridge, I may consider using it. I would bet money that the motor doesnt have too many miles on it since it hadnt been registered or driven for so long that I have been named as the original owner. I am anxious to pop the heads off and check it out.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,144 Posts
What year would that be?
351W starting in 93. Trucks and police cars.
Or if you search around you might still find some "Sportsman" blocks for sale. They are currently discontinued but they are drop-ins from Ford. Full roller and standard Windsor crank. All "other" blocks from Ford are race only and need custom rotating and oiling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
543 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
351W starting in 93. Trucks and police cars.
Or if you search around you might still find some "Sportsman" blocks for sale. They are currently discontinued but they are drop-ins from Ford. Full roller and standard Windsor crank. All "other" blocks from Ford are race only and need custom rotating and oiling.
Got it.....Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,598 Posts
I should have some link bar lifters sent to me in the next couple of weeks. I'll take a picture of one next to a stock roller lifter and you will see the differance.

I recieved the lifters from John Callies today. Had a delay as he was at SEMA. Attached are a couple of pictures comparing the stock Ford roller lifter on the left to the Morel link bar on the right. In the first pic you can see the differance in roller bearing height with the oil gallery communcation lands lined up. In the second pic with the roller bearings lined up you can see the higher oil communcation land on the stock Ford roller lifter.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I should have some link bar lifters sent to me in the next couple of weeks. I'll take a picture of one next to a stock roller lifter and you will see the differance.

I recieved the lifters from John Callies today. Had a delay as he was at SEMA. Attached are a couple of pictures comparing the stock Ford roller lifter on the left to the Morel link bar on the right. In the first pic you can see the differance in roller bearing height with the oil gallery communcation lands lined up. In the second pic with the roller bearings lined up you can see the higher oil communcation land on the stock Ford roller lifter.
So with the link bar lifters I can use any of the hydraulic roller cams in an older non roller block?
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top