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Discussion Starter #1
I recently purchased a 68 cougar from the opposite side of the country. I understood that I was dealing with a car guy with considerable experience with cougars. I asked him several questions regarding the car and had him take several more pictures of the car. At one point I called and asked him to go over the car with me while I was on the phone to look at specific areas for me. I specifically asked him to look for any accident damage. He had told me that the passenger quarter panel looked like it had some work done to it and suggested it should be replaced. After all this I decided to go ahead with the purchase. It was a substantial amount of money for a shell, and the car shipping, but I felt like I could trust this person as he was quite knowledgable about cougars.
Upon taking delivery of the car. The first thing I noticed as I jumped up on the car carrier was that the passenger door panel was blue in color, and that really stuck out because this was a factory red car. I did not have much time to look at the car as the driver wanted to get it off his truck. I had my car dolly there to take it the rest of the way home and it was getting dark so I did my best to hook it up to the dolly so I could take it the rest of the way home.
Upon arrival home, I was horrified to discover that the car was in a substantial wreck in the past. The passenger door was blue because it was a replacement door. The front door post was smashed in ( so bad that the metal interior dash panel was crumpled up) and the windshield piller was bent in at the top of the windshield where the roof joint is. The passenger quarter panel, outer wheel well, door jamb, and the interior sheet metal that holds the window regulator was also changed out from the accident, ( also tell-tale blue color). The car was hit so hard that the inner rear wheel well was also crinkled but was re-used.
I had the wind knocked out of my sails. I then sent a email to the seller and told him about what I discovered and the seller returned my email and stated that the car was sold 'as is'. He says that it is a forty year old car and this should be expected.
Here is my question about ethics. I have included photos of the damage and would like to know people's opinion about this matter.
1) Would you consider the damage noticable enough to tell someone that is purchasing the car sight unseen, considering that the seller was a knowledgable cougar person?
2) What would you do if you had this happen to you?
 

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I am sorry to hear of your unfortunate experiance. Items bought sight unseen can be a nightmare. Others will voice thier opinions. Just my 1/5 of a dime, try to make the best of it, I do not know/think that you have much recourse. Short of trying something in court for misrepresentation(which probably will not fly, as he did it by omission) you could , at least inform the rest of the folks to be very wary of dealing with this individual. Might try to reason with him, by letting him know that his info WILL be put out to the total cougar community. Just my opinion.
Always nice to find someone,other than seller to put eyes on a potential purchase.

Lloyd
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I agree with you, it would be terrible to put it out to the total cougar community. I am still hoping the this individual will come to his senses. It would be great if a man would stand behind what he represents.
 

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I think the price of a plane ticket could have eliminated any potential disappointment. Take it as a lesson to never buy a car sight unseen with the expectation that you and the seller are on the same page with your definition of condition.
 

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My thought too jb it's a lesson learned you can beat yourself all day long for a bad purchase but you have to move on, It's hard to trust people today it's sad but true. Sounds like you will have to put in a little extra time to get the car to look like what you thought you were going to get.
 

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if you paid using paypal or ebay you have some backing for help, if its ebay you have some very long long awaited backing but its there, if you used paypal they are pretty helpful i found . forget that dummy, "thats to be expected" is wrong, "accurate or even halfass description is to be expected" is my opinion.

if you just used neither then id take that oh so intelligent advice and " try to make the best of it".

we promise to all cheer you on as you fix each issue.
 

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i say go knock on his door and let him know what happens when you screw someone over. Sorry 'bout your luck man.
 

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What kind of pictures were you provided with prior to your purchase? Could you post these as well? Just seems kind of odd that you'd be surprised at the color of the passenger side door upon delivery. Didn't you have pics of all angles of this shell before buying?
 

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In response to #1, given your very pointed questions and the degree of damage, this ABSOLUTELY should have been disclosed and not doing so is clearly misrepresentation. I am not a lawyer (but I think Lloyd who commented is, IIRC) but c'mon. The damage is clearly visible to ANY car person. In fact, the seller went on and on about how nice the car was (here) and it also happened to be the subject of some debate. Your story certainly does not bode well for the credibility of this seller.

Having said that, due diligence is/was a key thing that was not done in the transaction and I would consider independant verification of what you were considering buying crucial, especially at the price paid.

Sorry for your trouble. As the seller is an active member here, hopefully you two can come to some agreement. Getting the word out as you have done is certainly valuable to the community, but may or may not help you in your situation. Hopefully there will be some resolution without too much bloodshed.

Good luck and welcome, sorry it was not under better circumstances that you made your introduction.

Regards,

Bob
 

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I would NEVER complete a car purchase without looking at the car in person. You gambled on the purchase and came out the loser. Now you know what "NOT TO DO" the next time. Maybe you and the seller can come to terms to ease you pain, but ultimately it's your mistake.
 

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Only those personally involved know all the facts needed to make a solid judgment. You asked what others would do. My response is: ASSUMING seller did not know about damage, and that buyer did not know of damage, and that damage is material to the price (the car needs a ground-up restoration either way, how much extra is this?).... then - I would suggest to seller that a post-sale adjustment in price is fair and reasonable, because seller got a price for something that he believed was better than it was. Had seller known of the damage, his price would have been lower. Likewise, buyer would have paid less had he had knowledge. I don't think that price adjustment is the full cost of repairing this particular damage, since the same areas would have needed attention regardless.

On a side note, it irritates me when people hide behind "as is." "As is" does not trump representations made by a seller. It's not like 8 year olds lying with their fingers crossed, which is a "get out of jail free" card, per Supreme Court precedent.

Good luck to those involved that this gets resolved fairly.
 

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Ha, funny this should come up (bad sellers that is). Last week I put a small deposit on a 67 Cougar that was listed on Craigslist in albuquerque (250 miles away from me). Seller sent pics and a grilled him on the condition of the car, i.e. rust issues, motor/trans condition. The seller said motor was professionally rebuilt along with transmission and front suspension. Well, after arriving at his house, the song bird changed his tone! The motor was locked up solid, transmission leaking fluid, only upper balljoints replaced, hidden rust, and after closer inspection, it looked like a flood recovery vehicle (rust/pitting under dash, water in vacuum lines, etc.). The pictures and lies dirtbag seller's use only paint a small portion of what reality is. I left mad and empty handed..told the dirtbag to keep my deposit since he earned it by deceiving me. Fool me once, shame on me....
 

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I too, got taken even though I thought I had an above average knowledge of cars. I have been out the the car world for a long time, I really didn't know what to look for.

My car had just been painted. He did a good job too. The seams were even. The panels were straight. Since I don't really enjoy body work, I thought this was great. Just some mechanical upgrades and I was set.

I crawled under the car and looked around. I saw that the floor had been replaced. Not too bad a job as I saw it. The whole underside of the car, and engine compartment were painted with undercoating (RED FLAG HERE).

What I didn't see was that he used "Great Stuff" as body filler in a number of places. There was major rust under the back seat that was also masked by Great Stuff and a coat of paint. The cowl area was rusted through in such a way that it was not visible. He has used Great Stuff on the side panels by the wheel wells to, I think.

One year later, the paint on the hood and trunk has major "fish eyes."

So now, I get to strip the car, replace the body panels and repaint.

I won't even talk about the 1/2" gap between the trans and bellhousing.

I also paid waaaay too much for the car.

The only thing you can do is chock it up as a learning experience and move on. At least that is what I decided to do even though I still get pi$$ed when I think about TPO.
 

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Shame.

A couple of quotes come to my mind.

"A fool and his money are soon parted" - T. Tusser

"Trust but verify" - R. Reagan (old Russian proverb)

"Experience: that most brutal of teachers." - C.S. Lewis

"I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday." - A. Lincoln
 

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Discussion Starter #16
What kind of pictures were you provided with prior to your purchase? Could you post these as well? Just seems kind of odd that you'd be surprised at the color of the passenger side door upon delivery. Didn't you have pics of all angles of this shell before buying?
I do have many photos of the car and intrestingly enough not any with the possible angle to show this damage. Really makes me think???
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Only those personally involved know all the facts needed to make a solid judgment. You asked what others would do. My response is: ASSUMING seller did not know about damage, and that buyer did not know of damage, and that damage is material to the price (the car needs a ground-up restoration either way, how much extra is this?).... then - I would suggest to seller that a post-sale adjustment in price is fair and reasonable, because seller got a price for something that he believed was better than it was. Had seller known of the damage, his price would have been lower. Likewise, buyer would have paid less had he had knowledge. I don't think that price adjustment is the full cost of repairing this particular damage, since the same areas would have needed attention regardless.

On a side note, it irritates me when people hide behind "as is." "As is" does not trump representations made by a seller. It's not like 8 year olds lying with their fingers crossed, which is a "get out of jail free" card, per Supreme Court precedent.

Good luck to those involved that this gets resolved fairly.
I agree with you. However I had an hour plus phone call with the seller last night and he says he is no bodyman-therefore should not have noticed these problems. The seller is not taking any responsibility for what has happened and no compensation was offered. If you knew how much I really paid for the car you would be blown away! It brings me back to ethics, is there such a thing in todays world?
 

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I purchased mine long distance (4,200Km), and took a plane there to buy it (then pay for it after a test drive) and drove it back.

It had a few minor boo-boos, but it didn't make me take a plane back.

they aren't all bad experiences. It is, however a crap shoot.

Jean
 

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...he says he is no bodyman-therefore should not have noticed these problems...
If "no bodyman" was replaced with "blind" then that might be a fair statement.
 

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Let me first say, NO I am NOT a Lawyer! I have had dealings with many. I will echo the sentiments of: If you can not look at it directly, have someone you "trust" to look it over! Ask Don about the 67 he helped me get from Cali. I got my money back out of it, and would do it again, but that is ME! I like road Trips. I do hope that some sort of resolution can come about. It was stated that IF seller did not know, then he represented what he knew, If he did know, well.....

Someday I may sell my 67, there are a couple members close by, they could be someones eyes, I can and do describe what I have to the best of my ability. BUT keep in Mind, I would be the Seller(person wanting to get money for vehicle). Practice due diligence!

Hope it all works out, I know that NO one will be totally happy but it can be a Lesson learned.
Just my 1/5 of a Dime
Lloyd
 
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