[G-13]

Hello,

I was hoping that BOWL could see this post.

I have a 1997 Thunderbird 4.6L V8. Before you laugh me off of this forum hear me out.

I want to pop one of these 351 Clevelands in there. I'm hoping that they make new ones. I think that a back issue of Jegs had some ford racing engines in there.

Now I know a 302 would fit a lot easier, but I want the 351 Cleveland.

Let me know if anyone would think it could work. Also, what kind of brand spanking new transmission would I need as well as the best carburetor that would go with it. I appreciate any constructive criticism as well. Go ahead and tell me I'm stupid and all that. I just want some seriously good opinions though.

I appreciate everyone's time! Let me know whatchu think?
:1zhelp:

 

[leonbray]

Cleveland should fit as it's narrower than a 4.6. Not sure about the deck height or sump/oil pick-up. How would you go for emmissions?

 

[bowl]

i dont know. the oil pan? hood clearance? transmission?
anything is possible but the 4.6 is a pretty good engine, they seem to do well with super chargers and there are lots of mods for the mod out there plus the od trans is good.
is this going to be a daily driver or a weekend fun car?
600 hp mod engines are becoming more and more common in the magazines these days.

If your intake manifold on the 4.6 developes a crack at the thermostat, there is a bulletin (97M91) on this and the dealer will fix it for free. it happend to me. they where very nice to me when i showed the letter to them.

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/19/96190745.html

 

[G-13]

First i want to say that i appreciate the extremely fast response to something that is seious to me.

I can't believe that list of PROBLEMS!!! Oh my goodness!!:eek2:

If you could provide more information about me getting this stuff fixed I would appreciate it. I bought this used, so I'm not sure if I can get this stuff fixed for free?

As far as the mods go, if you don't mind, could you further explain some of the new technologies out there today? I 've found it very hard and time consuming to find websites that talk about mods for the 1997 T-bird anyway, I think both of your t-birds look nice. Especially the white one

Well anyway, also let me know what you think the cost difference would be with buying a new cleveland for 9k plus everything, compared to just modding my engine. I'm kinda iffy on my transmission as I think it has a problem... It kinda shakes when shifting into 1-2 and 2-3. Drives like a dream on the highway @70 and 80 but sometimes gets a weird shake... And I have new tires and have had them balanced.

Thank you for your time once again Sirs.

 

[greggieatthebat]

My $.02:
The 2003 Cobra SVT comes with 390hp/390ft-lbs, and backs it up with the T56 tranny. I don't remember if it's 4.6 or 5.4, but it's 32valve version of course... my point is, if Ford can do that from the factory (granted it's SVT), you should be able to do it at home since you don't have to worry about things like 99.97% reliability (aka 3 sigma or 6 sigma) and such... and it's nice to know that a six-speed tranny will handle that much power/torque...

 

[FoKKerj]

I think hood clearencae will deffinately be an issue. We had a 92 t-bird with a factory 302. It had low profile valve covers & plennum

 

[bowl]

http://www.tccoa.com/

has a lot of good info. in the tech articles

 

[72cat]

If G-13 puts a 351C in and a nice carb etc [which I think is a great idea - my 0.000002c worth] then that is what you guys call a sleeper, correct, wrong?
G-13, we wanted to put a 351 in our Sierra, might still do it one day.........in the far far far away future.

 

[G-13]

how much do you think it would cost for the cleveland? Any good deals out there? My buddy told me he got one for $700 then built it.... In the end it only cost him $3200 WOW what a deal compared to the $9k i found in Jegs.

Too bad I know jack $hit about cars =[ all i know is that I love them.

About the hood. Hmmm.... I was thinking of getting the "Legendary Brand Name" Cobra R dual air intake hood. Only $500 !!! w00t! This is a shot of the hood right here... Do you think that will give enough head room for the engine?
http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=217562&cat=20&val=1

I'm also getting the same ground effects, but first its all about what the car can do....

Now let me get this right Bowl? Did you actually say the stock transmission is good enough to keep for such an awesome engine??

Hey by the way everyone could any of you come up with just a basic estimate of what the engine should cost plus what kind of Carburetor I would need to buy?

One more thing everyone. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME AND COMMENTS!!! You don't know how much I truly appreciate it!!!

 

[badcatt]

G-13 the trans behind the 4.6 will not bolt up to a cleveland. But if you do this you can find many that do C4, C6 FMX, AOD for automatic and lots fo 3, 4 and 5 speed units. The bigest long turm problem with this is it will make resale next to inposable as it will not be an emishion leagle car. Any dealer will mst likly not take it on trade and privite sales could be a problem. A frend built a Toyta 4X4 with Bronco running gear. When he got tired of it he traded it in and the dealer had it on his lot for 6 months and auctioned it out. It was still bouncing from dealer to dealer 3 years latter. Could not sell it for on road use here in the seattle area. Good luck what ever way you go.

 

[bowl]

i would keep the 4.6 in the thunderbird and the od trans is a great everyday comfort cruise deal. i wouldnt put 600 hp up to a stock one.

 

[G-13]

So what you're saying is that I shouldn't modify at ALL? Just stick with what I've got?

What about modifications to the original 4.6L? Can I get more power out of that? Let me know what you think as usual. As far as TCCoA goes, I've looked on there and they don't provide much information. Just "some" things that people have done.

I want to know about everything I can do to this engine to make it a bad mutha.

And NO, I AM well equipped, and I'm not trying to make up for somehing. I'm doing this for me. Just like all of you guys would.

Thanks everyone!!!

 

[Lab Rat]

Too bad I know jack $hit about cars all i know is that I love them.

Hey G-13 -

Now, let me start by saying that this whole scheme does sound pretty cool to me. But.....

Personally, if I were you I would stick with the 4.6L that's in the car right now, for a number of reasons. First off, though anything CAN be done with enough time and money, I think putting a 351C in your T-Bird just isn't worth it. Though it WOULD be cool to say you have a Cleveland in that car, as far as perforemance goes, that 4.6L can do a LOT for you.
So let me start with the 4.6L (my wife has a 'Stang with one in it that we're progressively modifying). If I were you, I would start off with about $1000 to $1200 and do some fairly standard mods: get yourself a nice set of long tube headers and cat-back/muffler system, a larger throttle body and some K&N free-flow filter equipment, and a nice set of underdrive pulleys. This will probably give you a good 40 to 50hp boost with relatively little effort and expense. That should perk up your T-Bird a little.
Also, before you decide to dump the 4.6L, there is a nifty little book titled "Mustang Performance Engine Tuning: High Performance Modifications for 4.6/5.0-Liter Mustangs, All Makes and Models 1979 to Present", which is a collection of technical articles from Muscle Mustang and Fast Fords magazine. Now - like the title says, it written for the 'Stang enthusiasts, but it has really nice information in it about performace mods for the 4.6L engine, how much horsepower you can expect to get from the mods discussed, and how much you can expect to pay.
Now - if you're really set on getting rid of the 4.6L engine and going in for larger displacement, you might want to consider this: instead of swapping in a 335 series Ford engine (of which the Cleveland is a member), go with something larger in the modular engine family - namely a 5.4L engine. I was condidering such a swap into one of the new Mustangs. The ideal way to go in thise regard would be to get a 5.4L 32V engine from the Lincoln Navigator. This way, you will not be plagued by worries about engine mounts, transmission bolt-up issues, etc. You will of course have issues to deal with, but not close to the issues I think you will have if you decide to swap in a Cleveland.

So that's my $0.02. Actually, that was probably more like $0.17, wasn't it - sorry for the length.

Lab Rat

 

[Lab Rat]

Too bad I know jack $hit about cars all i know is that I love them.

Hey G-13 -

Now, let me start by saying that this whole scheme does sound pretty cool to me. But.....

Personally, if I were you I would stick with the 4.6L that's in the car right now, for a number of reasons. First off, though anything CAN be done with enough time and money, I think putting a 351C in your T-Bird just isn't worth it. Though it WOULD be cool to say you have a Cleveland in that car, as far as perforemance goes, that 4.6L can do a LOT for you.
So let me start with the 4.6L (my wife has a 'Stang with one in it that we're progressively modifying). If I were you, I would start off with about $1000 to $1200 and do some fairly standard mods: get yourself a nice set of long tube headers and cat-back/muffler system, a larger throttle body and some K&N free-flow filter equipment, and a nice set of underdrive pulleys. This will probably give you a good 40 to 50hp boost with relatively little effort and expense. That should perk up your T-Bird a little.
Also, before you decide to dump the 4.6L, there is a nifty little book titled "Mustang Performance Engine Tuning: High Performance Modifications for 4.6/5.0-Liter Mustangs, All Makes and Models 1979 to Present", which is a collection of technical articles from Muscle Mustang and Fast Fords magazine. Now - like the title says, it written for the 'Stang enthusiasts, but it has really nice information in it about performace mods for the 4.6L engine, how much horsepower you can expect to get from the mods discussed, and how much you can expect to pay.
Now - if you're really set on getting rid of the 4.6L engine and going in for larger displacement, you might want to consider this: instead of swapping in a 335 series Ford engine (of which the Cleveland is a member), go with something larger in the modular engine family - namely a 5.4L engine. I was condidering such a swap into one of the new Mustangs. The ideal way to go in thise regard would be to get a 5.4L 32V engine from the Lincoln Navigator. This way, you will not be plagued by worries about engine mounts, transmission bolt-up issues, etc. You will of course have issues to deal with, but not close to the issues I think you will have if you decide to swap in a Cleveland.

So that's my $0.02. Actually, that was probably more like $0.17, wasn't it - sorry for the length.

Lab Rat

 

[Lab Rat]

That's really odd...... I'm wondering why that double-posted..... sorry everyone.

Lab Rat

 

[G-13]

Don't be sorry. That's some really great advice.

If you wouldn't mind the time spent, could you email me for better contact and all that?

Isn't that the same engine that's in the Expedition? (the navigator)

hmmm.... I guess I'm going to go for the best bang for the buck. So I would assume getting a million modifications would be a lot cheaper right?

How much would a lincoln navigator engine cost? hmmm... I wonder... That 4.6 looks really tight as it is in there... I'm not sure if a bigger engine could actually fit without having to mess with other things... I know that the more you mess with other things... the more problems that could arise.

As far as super chips go, what's the deal with those? And where's the best place to get them?

My email : [email protected]

thx everyone!

 

[MunchE]

Ford just announced a 425hp 5.0L DOHC crate engine based off of the modular 4.6. You should put that in there. :-D


http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=13573

The 5.0-liter Cammer crate engine is based on the SVT Mustang Cobra’s 4.6-liter 4-valve V-8. However, the crate version has several unique qualities and components, including:

Larger cylinders (94mm vs. 90.2mm) for 5.0 liters of piston displacement
Flanged cylinder liners
Reinforced crankcase web areas
Forged pistons
11.0:1 compression ratio
Ported heads
Higher-lift cams (12mm vs. 10mm)
Beehive-shaped valve springs to accommodate the higher lift
Modified roller-finger followers
Multi-layer steel-insert head gaskets
Higher-flow fuel injectors
3-piece cast-magnesium variable geometry intake manifold
Higher-flow, dual-cone-spray fuel injectors

The 5.0-liter Cammer crate engine will be shipped with a stock Mustang Cobra oil pan and exhaust manifolds. Installation will be eased substantially by a choice of six different 4.6-liter 4-valve modular wiring harnesses being created specifically for the 5.0-liter Cammer crate engine.

 

[G-13]

Well I've pretty much accepted that's exactly what I want to do. With all the custom mods i could do to my car, I'm sure i would come out to about :

5k which is what I'm expecting this new engine to cost.

I'm having doubts of course with the tranny so this is what I'm going to get to put in instead of the old one.

c6 AOD

Right? Made for all that torque? Well I hope so. I was told I can find them in 90's F150's or something like that. Now all I have to do if figure where I'm going to get all this money?

I'm expecting with a rebuilt tranny that should be about 1200 to 1500 and that a new one would be about 2k or something.

I'm also going to get Xenon GFX for it, keep the OG spoiler and get the Legendary Cobra R dual induction hood.

That should look nice. I'm not wanting rediculous results, just some balls from my car. 430 HP is just fine with me.

I might do Mods to it later on but I really don't need to with that engine.

So....

Do you think that the new

5.0 Cammer
+
c6 AOD Tranny Auto

Would be perfect combination?

I gotta buddy that uses the tranny with his Cleveland, so I would assume its a match made in heaven.

I've really lost respect for my tranny as it has problems for some reason.

Thanks for your time guys... Let me know with some feedback plz.

 

[JamesHecker]

I agree with those saying you can get a lot out of your 4.6. I have a '97 Cougar. With just a few mods I already have a pretty peppy performer. And with the addition of a supercharger I think I would have all the juice that would be comfortable for that car.

That 5.0 cammer certainly got my attention though! I wonder if it will fit in my Marauder.

 

[leonbray]

The guys at Ford in Oz have mated the Cobra 4V heads to the 5.4l modular V8 for 390hp off the floor