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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, need some engne guru advice.

I have a 69 std with a 302, and an the original FMX trans. Vin calls for a 351 2v. The other night my son blew the engine, Block is history as when the wrist pin went so did the cylinder wall, No. 2 cylinder now has an extra hole approx 3" x 2" in it. Since this was originally an "H" code car, I am considered replacing the engine with a 351. Here are the questons I have.

1. Trans id code is: PBH-E what are the engine options that this tranny will mate too...289, 302, 351w, 351c, 351M?

2. the 302 currently in it has 289 heads. Will the headers currently installed mount to a 351W? 351C? 351M? I know that 351C heads and 351W heads are different The reason I ask is that Summit racing headers use the same part number for headers for the 302 and the 351W.

3. Does anyone have one for sale?
 

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351W, 351C and 289 / 302 all use the same motor mounts and all bolt to the same transmission pattern. The biggest problem is the accessory mount brackets. 1969 351W is a unique set of brackets and some parts can be hard to get. You should look for a complete 1969 passenger car 351W to make things easy on the part search end of things.

Depending on manufacturer the headers should fit. Most made in the past 15 years are as you say with one application fitting 289 - 351W in Mustang and Cougar from 1967 - 70.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
351 Found!

Thanks Royce,

I have found a 351 in a 69 Merc Montego, They are telling me that the car has just under 50,000 miles on it. They're saying it's a 351C 2V. I didn't think Ford made the 351C in 69 but....maybe is a 70 Montego. Whats the quickest way to look at it and determine if it is a C or W other than the Id Tag?I made an appointment to see it on Thursday to hear it run and do a compression test before I close the deal. If it is a "W" I will try and talk down the price a bit.

Ron
 

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You are correct in that the 351C was introduced in 1970, not available in '69. If it is a 351C, it is not original to the car and should be looked at as suspect. W will have the same valve covers as your 302, with 6 bolts holding cover down. Clevelands have 8 valve cover bolts.

W will have thermostat housing attached to the front of the intake manifold, Cleveland has thermostat water neck going into the block.

OK, now how do you tell you're looking at a 351W and not a 302? The intake manifold will be wider. Look at your 302 and note how long the line is between the block and the bottom of the intake. The 351W is about 1-1/2" wider!


OK, 351C and 351M look very similar. The 351M block is taller than the C. If the bottom of the intake manifold is even with the distributor hold down bolt, you have a C. If the bottom of the intake is about an inch above the distributor hold down bolt, that is a 351M/400.

Transmission compatability. The 289/302/351W and 351C all share the same small block bellhousing pattern. The 351M/400 shares the taller bellhousing pattern of the 429/460. They did use FMXs behind 351M engines in the late 70s so you must be careful with that ID clue.

Agree with getting all the accessory bracketry from a donor car if you're switching from 302 to 351W. Same goes if you're getting a Cleveland. Make sure you get the correct accessory brakets and pulleys!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Cougrrcj,

I know he stated it was in a Montego, but I'm not sure of the year, so I'm hoping it's a 70. but thanks for the info just in case. I'm not going to get taken but trying to sell me a "C" when in reality it's a "W"... I'm not being picky between the two, would buy either if the engine is good and passes compression test. But I would be willing to pay a little more for a Cleveland than a Winsor.

While I'm at it. I know that the most important thing on the comp Test is that the cylinders are pretty much equal. But what around what should I expect, am I right to think around 140?

Thanks again,
Ron
 

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69Kat said:
Thanks Cougrrcj,

I know he stated it was in a Montego, but I'm not sure of the year, so I'm hoping it's a 70. but thanks for the info just in case. I'm not going to get taken but trying to sell me a "C" when in reality it's a "W"... I'm not being picky between the two, would buy either if the engine is good and passes compression test. But I would be willing to pay a little more for a Cleveland than a Winsor.


Thanks again,
Ron
I dont know why you would pay more for the Cleavland especially if its a 2bbl motor. Where were you when I was trying to give one away and it took 6 months to find a taker? mm
 

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im with mark here the windsor is a far better motor from a parts building standpoint. and a 2v clevland without the 4v heads isnt much better and parts for it stink. i would look for a good windsor pay next to nothing and use it for the rebuild.
 

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Your vin calls for the 351W I own a cleveland in my 68 I can attest that parts are few and far between and a bit more pricey. Both are great engines it is your preference.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
MM, I didn't need the motor when you were trying to give it away. but if I had I would have gladly taken it. Thre reason I'm willing to pay a little more - with emphasis on little - for the Cleveland is that their not quite as common as the windsor. Which accounts for the reason that parts are harder to find and makes the parts that are available more expensive. economics 101 - supply and demand. I haven't had much luck in finding a running engine around here, lots of 'Cores" but no good running ones and this engine will not get 'built'. This is the car that my 17 year old son drives, and he just made history of a 302 (which had a mild build on it), and he's not allowed to even think about driving my 67. or my '02 F350. I figure $400 is a decent price for an engine is good running condition, "C" or "W". And since my son is having to pay for it, maybe now he will learn to take better care of it.
 

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69Kat, you missed my point! My point was that a 2bbl C isnt worth much as far a dollars go even with them being not as common. The windsor will be cheaper to install over the Cleavland also as the water pump outlet will be on the correct side and if not the 302 water pump will fit it, the headers may fit etc besides haveing more room under the hood with it. I might add my opinon that makeing the boy "pay" is a step in the right direction. The hard lessons learned are the most remembered. I have been there and done that with my own young drivers here. Good luck! mm
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks MM, I go and see the engine today, so I will find out whether or not its a 'C' or a 'W'. Doesn't really matter to me. Just to find a 30 plus year old engine with only 50,000 miles (if its true) on it still in good running condition (i.e. not needing an overhaul) is what I'm considering most important. It's still in its donor car so I guess I'll know later. I have my suspicions as I'm almost positive the guy said it was in a '69' montego and he swears its a 'C'and that gives me a negotation tool to dicker with the price if it is a "w" because its not what he made it out to be. He doesn't need to know the fact that I don't really care and every buck saved is a buck earned. I'd be happy with either or even a 289 or 302 as far as that goes. My son is working on a limited budget, so a rebuilt short block is out of the question ( at Checker theirs are 650 plus a core charge and I haven't heard anything good about them). And the boy needs his wheels going, I just don't have the time to be taking him to school, school functions, work and all the other places that teenagers seem to have to go these days. I have a friend that has a 428 in storage, that I would love to buy, rebuild and put in it, but that would be a lot of work and expense and i'm just not going to turn a 17year old loose with that kinda power either. Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Donor Motor seen

Hi all,

Saw the donor engine yesterday, it was a cleveland, but it was in a 71 montego and had 82,000 miles on it. While I was there the guy took in a 351W. I listened to it run and all sounded good, I'm now waiting for the compression test results. The Windsor is in an 81 Bronco, and he is asking $50 less for the windsor than the price for the cleveland I will have to change the water pump, Oil Pan and pickup tube to put it in the 69. It has electronic ignition so if I can't convert the control module to work with the 69 wiring harness, I may have to get an msd control box or switch it to a points system. Will the distrubtor in the 302 work in the 351W? I have heard differing opinons on this. Does anyone know for sure? I know I can use the old water pump, and I will have to get a new oil pan with a front sump.
 

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I will go out on a limb and say you need a distibutor specifically for a 351. The 302 will not fit, mainly due to the increased height of the 351 over the 302. All of the parts books show a specific listing for a 351.


Mark
 

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The bad news is the 302 dist wont work. The good news is the duraspark dist in the motor will work if you would like a electronic set up over the points!!! Just make sure when the motor comes out of the bronco to get the wireing harness that goes between the dist and the control module, and get the module too.

Its easy to wire up just go to mustangsteves.com and look at the link for switching over to electronic ign from points. Theres a good wireing diagram on how to hook it up. I have done this before and it works great. The front sump pan and pick up should be EASY to find and I would go ahead and put a new rear seal in any used motor I planned on using especially if I had the pan off it already. Cheap insurance. mm
 

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302/351W distributors are the same....almost! They are the same length and all, but the 302 uses a 1/4" hex oil pump driveshaft and the 351 uses a 5/16" hex shaft. By the time you change around the lower gear and mainshaft, you are really better off just getting the correct distributor to begin with.

Go ahead and use the Duraspark. An MSD unit will take the place of the original Ford module, and you'll have a better spark to boot. With the Duraspark you also get the added benefit of never having to adjust points again. Also, if you leave the bigger diameter cap on it you also have the added benefit of lowering the chance of crossover spark with the high-output MSD.
 
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