[Joel]

'69 w/351 and FMX. P/S and P/B. Can the pan be somewhat easily changed with the engine in the car or does the engne need to be lifted or out of the car?

Thank you, Joel

 

[MrEos]

Not terribly difficult. You need to drop the steering linkage by removing the idler arm from frame, and remove the under-engine cross brace.

 

[Joel]

Thanks MrEos.

 

[Bad69cat]

Also don't overtighten the bolts - it's the cause for most oil pan leaks.... use a dab of RTV in the corners where the journal seals and the cork seals intermingle. This is one of those job that's a PITA upside down - occasional oil drip in your mouth/face......eeeww - good luck

Oh, while you have the pan off lay it on a flat surface and be sure to check for flat and tweak it if needed do to somebody getting to crazy on the torqing

 

[Joel]

Thanks Bad69cat.

 

[Jester1023]

It may not be a bad time for a new oil pump, pick-up and drive rod. ALWAYS dry fit everything before you do the final install. You'll want to check for pick-up screen clearance...which is basically using silly putty on the bottom of the screen shield (NOT THE SCREEN ITSELF) and pressing the pan in place. Then you remove the pan to check your clearance.

Notes:
Don't use high volume or high pressure pumps in the Windsor or Cleveland without oil system modification. If you are lacking pressure and a new pump doesn't cure it, then you have other problems.

If you put the silly putty on the screen itself, it can and normally will, squeeze into the screen...game over.

 

[Joel]

How much clearance should there be?

What brand(s) of standard oil pump is(are) recommended?

 

[0F91H570075]

It may not be a bad time for a new oil pump, pick-up and drive rod. ALWAYS dry fit everything before you do the final install. You'll want to check for pick-up screen clearance...which is basically using silly putty on the bottom of the screen shield (NOT THE SCREEN ITSELF) and pressing the pan in place. Then you remove the pan to check your clearance.

Notes:
Don't use high volume or high pressure pumps in the Windsor or Cleveland without oil system modification. If you are lacking pressure and a new pump doesn't cure it, then you have other problems.

If you put the silly putty on the screen itself, it can and normally will, squeeze into the screen...game over.

Just wondering, why shouldn't you use a high volume oil pump in Cleveland's without oil system modifications?

I had a high volume pump put in when my engine was rebuilt in 1983. It was recommended with to go with the wrong cam that I bought under other bad advice. Along with the wrong cam which had 530 lift 280 duration on both intake and exhaust I had the (rocker pedestals?) milled down and taped for for screw in studs and had Ford guide plates installed. So, I was told to get the high volume pump, but no oil system modifications were done other than that pump.

Anyway, what will go wrong if you do the pump only?

BTW, the cam was unwise for my car because of the 3:00 rear end and the FMX. 70 H code Cleveland. I was just a kid and trusted the bad advice of the guy at the speed shop.

 

[0F91H570075]

It may not be a bad time for a new oil pump, ........

good idea. And don't forget to prime the pump.
Not exactly the same set up, but on the 70 351 C. Changing the pan and pump is easy. I mean anyone can do it. It might take all day on your first try, but what I mean, is you don't need to pay a pro.

 

[charlie264]

I'm not sure hw things fit on the 351, I had to change out the pan on my 302 a few months ago. Had to remove the cross member,drop the starter, and the sway bar to get mine out. it is important to make sure that you get everything clean before reassembly, don't want leaks... I applied silicon sealer between the gasket and the the motor and put bolts in just lightly tight and let the gasket set up to the motor then did the same to the bottom side of the gasket before putting pan on and then torgueing it on. Takes a lottle extra time but no leaks.
Charlie

 

[Jester1023]

How much clearance should there be?

What brand(s) of standard oil pump is(are) recommended?

Here is a link to a reputable magazine that suggests 31/48", or .645". http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/engine/mufp_0610_engine_building_mistakes/viewall.html
I've always been near the 5/8" range. You want to be close, but not so close that the pickup suffocates.

I like Melling pumps the part number for the 351w standard volume is M-83. If you're replacing the pump, replace the pickup and drive rod. Go with the patching pickup for whatever pan you're using. I would highly suggest spending a little extra for the ARP pump drive shaft.

 

[Jester1023]

Just wondering, why shouldn't you use a high volume oil pump in Cleveland's without oil system modifications?

I had a high volume pump put in when my engine was rebuilt in 1983. It was recommended with to go with the wrong cam that I bought under other bad advice. Along with the wrong cam which had 530 lift 280 duration on both intake and exhaust I had the (rocker pedestals?) milled down and taped for for screw in studs and had Ford guide plates installed. So, I was told to get the high volume pump, but no oil system modifications were done other than that pump.

Anyway, what will go wrong if you do the pump only?

BTW, the cam was unwise for my car because of the 3:00 rear end and the FMX. 70 H code Cleveland. I was just a kid and trusted the bad advice of the guy at the speed shop.

The Cleveland is my favorite engine...though it's not without flaws. They have one of the worst oil systems of any engine. The stock oil system works great without mods for a mostly stock build. The two major flaws in the system is that the cam gets oil first, before the crank and the oil drain back is rather poor.

Cam and valvetrain selection has little to no effect on oil pump selection.

Take the Chevy sm block...the crank gets oiled first. They also have clearances on the loose side, along with the ability to drain the oil back to the crankcase reasonably fast. Adding a high volume pump to the mix is fine because the extra volume helps cushion the extra clearance, all while getting to the lifters/pushrods/rockers and into the drain back passages in a timely manor.

A Cleveland runs a little tighter...the idea for proper engine lubrication is to get the flow of oil in the bearings and back out, before there is a chance for extra heat build up. When greater volumes of oil are forced into tight areas, the added friction causes heat to build up resulting in faster oil break down. The oil pump will also be straining to get the extra oil through the same stock passages, also resulting in heat build up and eventually pump failure. On a side note, once the oil makes it through the valvetrain, it pool in the cylinder head until it can drain back to the pan. The Cleveland heads have rather small drain holes making it hard for large volumes of oil to return to the sump. If a high volume pump is implemented, the extra volume removed from the pan makes it to the heads much faster than it can return...resulting in a "dry pan". This is very bad fuji and normally happens at higher rpm, which takes no time at all for engine failure.

Are you currently running the engine without problems? Are the other factors for cam selection complimentary?..ie, compression ratio, valve springs, hardened pushrods, etc.

 

[0F91H570075]

The Cleveland is my favorite engine...though it's not without flaws. They have one of the worst oil systems of any engine. The stock oil system works great without mods for a mostly stock build. The two major flaws in the system is that the cam gets oil first, before the crank and the oil drain back is rather poor.

Cam and valvetrain selection has little to no effect on oil pump selection.

Take the Chevy sm block...the crank gets oiled first. They also have clearances on the loose side, along with the ability to drain the oil back to the crankcase reasonably fast. Adding a high volume pump to the mix is fine because the extra volume helps cushion the extra clearance, all while getting to the lifters/pushrods/rockers and into the drain back passages in a timely manor.

A Cleveland runs a little tighter...the idea for proper engine lubrication is to get the flow of oil in the bearings and back out, before there is a chance for extra heat build up. When greater volumes of oil are forced into tight areas, the added friction causes heat to build up resulting in faster oil break down. The oil pump will also be straining to get the extra oil through the same stock passages, also resulting in heat build up and eventually pump failure. On a side note, once the oil makes it through the valvetrain, it pool in the cylinder head until it can drain back to the pan. The Cleveland heads have rather small drain holes making it hard for large volumes of oil to return to the sump. If a high volume pump is implemented, the extra volume removed from the pan makes it to the heads much faster than it can return...resulting in a "dry pan". This is very bad fuji and normally happens at higher rpm, which takes no time at all for engine failure.

Are you currently running the engine without problems? Are the other factors for cam selection complimentary?..ie, compression ratio, valve springs, hardened pushrods, etc.

Thanks for the interesting information
The car is long gone. Got rid of it in 1993.

 

[Joel]

Jester1023....What is a patching pickup?

Thank you for the other info. Joel

 

[Jester1023]

Jester1023....What is a patching pickup?

Thank you for the other info. Joel

Sorry...t9 word suggest, and I didn't proof read my post. What I meant to say was "matching" pickup. Get the Melling stock replacement pickup for a stock '69 Windsor oil pan. If you were to replace the oil pan with a Canton, go with the matching Canton pickup...Moroso pan, Moroso pickup and so on.

 

[Joel]

Got it.

Thanks to everyone for your help. Joel

 

[elimin8r]

It may not be a bad time for a new oil pump, pick-up and drive rod. ALWAYS dry fit everything before you do the final install. You'll want to check for pick-up screen clearance...which is basically using silly putty on the bottom of the screen shield (NOT THE SCREEN ITSELF) and pressing the pan in place. Then you remove the pan to check your clearance.

Notes:
Don't use high volume or high pressure pumps in the Windsor or Cleveland without oil system modification. If you are lacking pressure and a new pump doesn't cure it, then you have other problems.

If you put the silly putty on the screen itself, it can and normally will, squeeze into the screen...game over.

I don't think original pick up screens are adjustable. Don't they just bolt on. Or do you mean bend it?

 

[70XR7]

Just to add to this. I went with the one piece rubber oil pan gasket. All I had to do was the loosen the linkage and drop the crossmember. Cleaned the surface of the block used a new oil pan from WCCC. It took about 2 hours and the pan and gasket went smoothly. No leaks there. I did have a leak that took me a while to trace. Even took the oil pan off and reinstalled. Still leaked....... Timing chain cover gasket was bad.... I'm no expert and it was really pretty easy and actually I felt a sense of accomplishment. Good luck.

 

[Jester1023]

I don't think original pick up screens are adjustable. Don't they just bolt on. Or do you mean bend it?

Yes. Bending is the only way to adjust, but it most likely won't need to be bent...they're normally pretty close on the first try.