OK. I am getting used to the idea that I am not going to build a 393/408. Just isn't really in the budget when you can get a complete bottom end rebuild for only 410 bucks from summit. (Plus cam kit of course) So, are cams for a 302 that list a W pattern, also good for a W? Is the lift, overlap, separation and duration calculated for the narrower block of a 302? Or is the only real difference the firing order?
camshafts, again
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Only the firing order is different. The cam specs don't change from one block to another..
The Summit rebuild kit is probably fine for a seldom-driven street car. You're just refreshing the bearings and rings, really - putting a band-aid on a tired old motor. The block is still going to be worn, and so is the crank. Don't get me wrong - I've done this type of budget-rebuild before, but you really are not going to get another 100,000+ miles out of it. Maybe 20-40k...
The cylinder bore wears in a taper of a couple thousandths from top to bottom. It gets a ridge at the top at the upper limit of the top piston ring. You have to at least cut that ridge out or when the new sharp piston ring hits that ridge, it'll break. Not to mention that remember that the rings have to move in-and-out to fit the taper as the pistons move up and down. That wears out the piston ring grooves.
The crank journals of your old crank ave worn in an ever-so-slight egg-shape. I'm talking only a couple of thousandths of an inch. BUT, when you're dealing with bearing clearances of only a couple of thousandths to begin with,... Your oil pressure won't be as good as it would be on a freshly-ground crank.
For a budget-build like you are proposing, one of the Summit-brand cam and lifter kits should do you fine - don't forget that you'll also want a new timing chain!!! I've used those cheapie Summit cams in a couple of cars. They're still 'hotter' than what your car had from the factory. Part #SUM-K4400 I used that cam in my previous '87 351W.
If your engine is burning oil, it is probably from worn valve guides and/or valve guide seals.
The Summit rebuild kit is probably fine for a seldom-driven street car. You're just refreshing the bearings and rings, really - putting a band-aid on a tired old motor. The block is still going to be worn, and so is the crank. Don't get me wrong - I've done this type of budget-rebuild before, but you really are not going to get another 100,000+ miles out of it. Maybe 20-40k...
The cylinder bore wears in a taper of a couple thousandths from top to bottom. It gets a ridge at the top at the upper limit of the top piston ring. You have to at least cut that ridge out or when the new sharp piston ring hits that ridge, it'll break. Not to mention that remember that the rings have to move in-and-out to fit the taper as the pistons move up and down. That wears out the piston ring grooves.
The crank journals of your old crank ave worn in an ever-so-slight egg-shape. I'm talking only a couple of thousandths of an inch. BUT, when you're dealing with bearing clearances of only a couple of thousandths to begin with,... Your oil pressure won't be as good as it would be on a freshly-ground crank.
For a budget-build like you are proposing, one of the Summit-brand cam and lifter kits should do you fine - don't forget that you'll also want a new timing chain!!! I've used those cheapie Summit cams in a couple of cars. They're still 'hotter' than what your car had from the factory. Part #SUM-K4400 I used that cam in my previous '87 351W.
If your engine is burning oil, it is probably from worn valve guides and/or valve guide seals.
This is the kit that I'm looking at...:http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FEM-MHP176-300/
I'm trying to not end up with more, extra stuff when I'm done. I bought a pair of trick flow heads, and they are complete, so I have to decide on buying a "K" kit from COMP cams, or piecing the parts together, and selling the springs off the TF heads.
I'm planning on going .010 over and under on the rods and mains, and .030 over on the pistons, with a .5xx lift cam. The car already has a set of 3.89's in the rear, and a lot of other goodies under the hood. I was looking at this Lunati cam...: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-61003LK/ ..That looks like a fun bumpstick for a car with a manual trans (T-5) and the 3.89 gears. The retro roller set ups look like you lose some strength with the current designs. I hate to give up, but I'm not getting any younger here, and I really do want to move on with other projects!
I'm trying to not end up with more, extra stuff when I'm done. I bought a pair of trick flow heads, and they are complete, so I have to decide on buying a "K" kit from COMP cams, or piecing the parts together, and selling the springs off the TF heads.
I'm planning on going .010 over and under on the rods and mains, and .030 over on the pistons, with a .5xx lift cam. The car already has a set of 3.89's in the rear, and a lot of other goodies under the hood. I was looking at this Lunati cam...: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-61003LK/ ..That looks like a fun bumpstick for a car with a manual trans (T-5) and the 3.89 gears. The retro roller set ups look like you lose some strength with the current designs. I hate to give up, but I'm not getting any younger here, and I really do want to move on with other projects!
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
I'm running a retrofit hydraulic roller in my 393W. Just the switch from the hydraulic flat tappet X4262H (.524"/.544" w/ 1.7 rockers) to the retrofit hydraulic roller XR276RF-HR (.545/.545 w/ same 1.7 roller rockers) got me another track-proven 100hp! After seeing gains like that with just a mild hydraulic roller, I'll never use another flat tappet again!
By the time I would have spent the money to have my crank reground, it was only another $50 for the new stroker crank! Same with the rods. Reconditioning rods ain't cheap any more, so I just got new replacements for almost the same price. The way I figure it, the stroker cost me only about $75 more than rebuilding the 351W shortblock. You'll spend ~$125 to have your block bored, plus hot tanking, plus cam bearings, plus cam bearing istallation, plus... Another $125 to have your crank ground... another $50 for a quality timing set...
What I'm trying to say, is that the engine of your dreams won't cost but a couple hundred more than what you'll spend for a stock 351 rebuild. When it is all said and done, don't you think you're worth it? :burnout: LOL!!!
By the time I would have spent the money to have my crank reground, it was only another $50 for the new stroker crank! Same with the rods. Reconditioning rods ain't cheap any more, so I just got new replacements for almost the same price. The way I figure it, the stroker cost me only about $75 more than rebuilding the 351W shortblock. You'll spend ~$125 to have your block bored, plus hot tanking, plus cam bearings, plus cam bearing istallation, plus... Another $125 to have your crank ground... another $50 for a quality timing set...
What I'm trying to say, is that the engine of your dreams won't cost but a couple hundred more than what you'll spend for a stock 351 rebuild. When it is all said and done, don't you think you're worth it? :burnout: LOL!!!
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
Agreed, roller is the way to go
Around here you can get a crank reground 10/10 for $60. So you can get a stroker crank for around $110?
Joined
·
2,493 Posts
i agree on budget builds too, but as cougarcj and art have said, for a few extra bucks you have quite the monster motor, do not put unground crank back that engine, you will regret it. my 342 kit was 1k , new crank, rods pistons, and rings. the reality of it is, the 351 pins are press fit, you will have a machine bill. whats your total outgo money wise that you want/can go into this? that needs to be considered before you start buying part one. have you had a machine shop check out your block? if its a simple clean and hone you will be better off than just stuffing new pistons in ovaled cylinders
justin
justin
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Especially with today's oils. Why take the chance on having a flat tappet wipe out during break-in.
Yeah, I did get a cheap stroker crank, but not $110. I got a 'blem' cast Eagle crank for $145, shipped - It had been turned .010 on the mains by Eagle. The last time I had a stock crank ground it cost me $80, and that was over 25 years ago. I figured that it had to be more than that today.
Oh, and a couple of things I forgot to mention earlier -
The Summit kit will more than likely need to have the pistons and/or entire rotating assembly balanced. Another $125.
My new stock-replacement connecting rods already had ARP rod bolts installed. $120 total price.
Oil pump driveshaft - Granted, Windsors use a 5/16" hex shaft whereas 289/302s use a 1/4" hex shaft, almost 8" long. That's pretty wimpy for something that turns the oil pump providing the life-blood for your engine. Milodon, Moroso or Ford Motorsport shafts are $20
Add all those things up and you see that it'll cost you close to a grand to have a fresh shortblock, even with a cheap stock rebuild kit.
That's the same engine kit that I used for my 289 when I was going to school. The machine work for everything was only 700.00, for the heads, block etc..The other reason I'm rethinking the 393/408, is that I already have the 170 FAC TF heads. Those are now the limiting factor, as well as the non roller, early W block. I have thought about a roller block, but then everything I have parts wise is for the earlier block. MSD distributor, Air gap intake, etc...I am trying to not end up with any more "left overs".
If you add up one of these...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-94305BE/Application/?prefilter=1
And then one of these...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K35-452-8/ (Or similar,...)
And it starts looking better for the 410.00 dollar bottom end kit, and a new flat tappet cam kit. I have a T5 waiting to go in, and the 3.89 gears, Headers, etc..I just want to drive it and enjoy it, rather than wait, till "next year, I'll finish it then..."
If you add up one of these...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCA-1-94305BE/Application/?prefilter=1
And then one of these...http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K35-452-8/ (Or similar,...)
And it starts looking better for the 410.00 dollar bottom end kit, and a new flat tappet cam kit. I have a T5 waiting to go in, and the 3.89 gears, Headers, etc..I just want to drive it and enjoy it, rather than wait, till "next year, I'll finish it then..."
The TW 170 will perform quite well even with the larger capacity 393/408. Throw in a retro roller cam and you will have a very low cost rebuild that performs very very well. Later change the heads and Cam for larger gains though from the description of your goals - you will most likely will be happy with the parts selection you have. I believe you are over thinking it. Use the parts you have with the lowest cost (reasonable brand) stroker and a retro roller cam. You can further build on it later.
Just my 5 cents worth.
Just my 5 cents worth.
I believe I will be home now early in March. When I get some numbers from the machine shop, I'll post back up, and let you all know what I decided..... I want the 393/408, but roller cam, plus new rotating assembly, plus roller cam.........I will have to do all the guzinta's.......
Did I see correctly that the pistons were flat top no valve reliefs. That has got to put the compression somewhere near crazy. Most stock replacement pistons for 351w have reliefs sized for smaller than 202/160 I would watch this closely. Also remember that there are 2 different deck heights on the 351w. 9.48 and 9.5?.
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Woodsnake,
The machine work costs are still going to be the same either way, stock rebuild or stroker. You have to decided if you want the $410 kit (plus crankshaft reconditioning, balancing, plus rod reconditioning) which add up to another $300 or so. Or get a $1100 stroker kit with new crank, new rods, and it comes pre-balanced. $300 difference. You decide.
kooade,
The $410 kit he listed from Summit has the compression ratio listed at 9.17 with a 63cc head. TW heads have 61cc chambers so that'll bump it up a little. But the thing I'm not sure about is what deck height block that rebuild kit is for. The early blocks had a 9.480 and later blocks (71- or 73-up, I've seen it either way) have a 9.503. That .023" difference in deck height makes for another 4.8ccs
The machine work costs are still going to be the same either way, stock rebuild or stroker. You have to decided if you want the $410 kit (plus crankshaft reconditioning, balancing, plus rod reconditioning) which add up to another $300 or so. Or get a $1100 stroker kit with new crank, new rods, and it comes pre-balanced. $300 difference. You decide.
kooade,
The $410 kit he listed from Summit has the compression ratio listed at 9.17 with a 63cc head. TW heads have 61cc chambers so that'll bump it up a little. But the thing I'm not sure about is what deck height block that rebuild kit is for. The early blocks had a 9.480 and later blocks (71- or 73-up, I've seen it either way) have a 9.503. That .023" difference in deck height makes for another 4.8ccs
I have never put a 351w street engine together without some kind of a dished piston. With a 10cc dish .25 in the hole on a 9.5 deck still gets the compression around 9.5 with 63 cc heads. http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
My advice would be to spend the money on the bottom end. Build it to run decent lift. Run a non roller hydraulic cam and save your money there. You can always go back change the cam if you have nice big valve reliefs. The probe srs pistons have many combination and nice reliefs. The KB's have big ones too . My bone stock fms 351a put my car in the solid 11's with the 80$ a351 cam. Ford cut big notches in the stock pistons. I'm sure your heads are better than the j 302s that came on my motor. I believe the 351w just begs to be a stroker. If you match your stuff right you can use a stroker crank stock rods and 302 pistons. The budget stroker. Take your time do your math. Its not like the old days of 400m cranks and balancing nightmares.
My advice would be to spend the money on the bottom end. Build it to run decent lift. Run a non roller hydraulic cam and save your money there. You can always go back change the cam if you have nice big valve reliefs. The probe srs pistons have many combination and nice reliefs. The KB's have big ones too . My bone stock fms 351a put my car in the solid 11's with the 80$ a351 cam. Ford cut big notches in the stock pistons. I'm sure your heads are better than the j 302s that came on my motor. I believe the 351w just begs to be a stroker. If you match your stuff right you can use a stroker crank stock rods and 302 pistons. The budget stroker. Take your time do your math. Its not like the old days of 400m cranks and balancing nightmares.
Joined
·
11,950 Posts
It guzzata your wallet and guzinta somebody elses........I'm so good at math it scares me! ;>) Are you looking at crate motors at all?
No, I haven't looked at crate motors yet. Again, I'm trying to not end up with a bunch of "leftover'extra" stuff. As far as the machine shop expenses go, The cost of getting the stock crank turned, if necessary, plus balancing, plus reconditioning the rods, plus mounting the pistons, VS a new rotating assembly is what I'm going to have to balance out. The over bore, plus any notching that may be necessary will also figure into the cost. As a comparison, my 68 289 motor with the above kit, is performing fine for me, and I am happy with the performance return on the dollar investment. Other than that huge effing headache with valve train geometry. I kind of think that For the W, I would be similarly happy. However, the 69 has always been the hotrod in the group, and I want to ensure that it stays that way. So I'm still leaning towards the 393/408. I mean, if the cost of a balanced rotating assembly is within a hundred or so of reconditioning the original parts, and the block work cost is the same, then the choice is obvious. The retro roller is an expensive choice, but worth it over time. I like the comp kits, as they sell you everything at once.
I should stop typing now, as I have been on shift for 18 hours, and am starting to ESP more info here than actually typeing in....
I should stop typing now, as I have been on shift for 18 hours, and am starting to ESP more info here than actually typeing in....
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Wood,
I'm glad you're coming around to the Dark Side, LOL!
The 'cheapie' 393W route, and most 408 kits do not require any block notching, so you can throw that 'supposed' added expense away... Even if you do have to source a newer taller block (hopefully a 94-up roller block), you'll be dollars ahead!
Heck, I'm seriously thinking about ditching my beloved Q-code 351 Cleveland 4Vs in Alpha- and BetaCats and dropping in stroked Windsors and WR-AODs. Much better power for the dollar, and even easier to find good parts these days... I mean, both AlphaCat and BetaCat were running 14.40s @ 94 or so with 351C-4Vs and only got 10-12mpg, and my heavier '89 Crown Vic running a hydraulic roller-cammed, regular gas 393W/WR-AOD is running dang-near into the 12s at 105mph and get 15+mpg... Gotta love that overdrive, eh? I've already snarfed up one roller 351W block, and I have access to cheap AOD/4R70W core trannies...
I'm glad you're coming around to the Dark Side, LOL!
The 'cheapie' 393W route, and most 408 kits do not require any block notching, so you can throw that 'supposed' added expense away... Even if you do have to source a newer taller block (hopefully a 94-up roller block), you'll be dollars ahead!
Heck, I'm seriously thinking about ditching my beloved Q-code 351 Cleveland 4Vs in Alpha- and BetaCats and dropping in stroked Windsors and WR-AODs. Much better power for the dollar, and even easier to find good parts these days... I mean, both AlphaCat and BetaCat were running 14.40s @ 94 or so with 351C-4Vs and only got 10-12mpg, and my heavier '89 Crown Vic running a hydraulic roller-cammed, regular gas 393W/WR-AOD is running dang-near into the 12s at 105mph and get 15+mpg... Gotta love that overdrive, eh? I've already snarfed up one roller 351W block, and I have access to cheap AOD/4R70W core trannies...
Joined
·
5,883 Posts
You lemme know if you decide to part with those q engines, Milo.
My 2v headed 357 incher ran 13.50's with a fairly mild combo and no traction aids, rusty floors, etc. I think you probably needed a better tuner. :0)
My 2v headed 357 incher ran 13.50's with a fairly mild combo and no traction aids, rusty floors, etc. I think you probably needed a better tuner. :0)
Joined
·
5,470 Posts
Andy,
Your early Cats are a lot lighter than my 3750-pound '73s... :1poke:
AlphaCat still has it's numbers-matching block, so that one is a keeper even if I do convert it. BetaCat's was gone and replaced with a generic 2V before I bought it but I found another Q-code 4V to replace it... I also have three more 2Vs in stock as spares... Too bad I sold my spare 4-bolt block... :toung:
Your early Cats are a lot lighter than my 3750-pound '73s... :1poke:
AlphaCat still has it's numbers-matching block, so that one is a keeper even if I do convert it. BetaCat's was gone and replaced with a generic 2V before I bought it but I found another Q-code 4V to replace it... I also have three more 2Vs in stock as spares... Too bad I sold my spare 4-bolt block... :toung:
Joined
·
5,883 Posts
:O)
Let it never be said I'm too good to vulture for Cleveland parts.
Let it never be said I'm too good to vulture for Cleveland parts.
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
A larger cubic inch motor need more lift and duration simply because a bigger motor need more fuel and air. That's why the early 351W heads had slightly larger intake ports and valves.
That being said, the best street cam I ever had (393W) was listed for a 302.
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Join the discussion
Join now to ask and comment!