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Discussion Starter #1
Here is what the previous owner told me about the modifications to my Cougar:

"The powertrain was totally rebuilt 12000 miles ago. The 2v to 4v conversion Cleveland was professionally rebuilt to run unleaded (premium) gas, was balanced, blueprinted,equipped with forged flattop pistons, a CJ cam, Holley, Edelbrock intake etc. and runs and drives better than any other 71,2 or 3 I have driven, 2 or 4 barrel (I've never driven a 429). The transmission was rebuilt at the same time and a 3.00 traction lock rear was installed 3 years ago, rebuilt with new clutches)."

He said it now gets 325 HP and I tend to believe it. It rockets.

My question is whether I should worry about any loss of value from these modifications.
 

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73,

You say your car was 'professionally converted' from a 2V to 4V.

Follow this link re: heads.

http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230

Follow the thread about halfway down and you'll see a long discussion about Cleveland heads. Did the rebuilder use 2V or 4V heads? There are more changes in a 4V than just the heads. 72-up 'Q' code 4Vs have a hotter than normal camshaft, although it was also retarded four degrees for emission purposes. Q-code cars also have four bolt main bearing caps, whereas 2V and M-code have two bolt mains.

Intake manifolds: M-code cars have 'square bore' carbs, and Q-codes have spread bore carbs. 73-74 Q code intakes also have EGR passages. The EGR plate is made out of aluminum. Bad news is that the exhaust gasses are corrosive to the aluminum and most have been eaten through.

I see you have an Edelbrock intake... which one? Which Holley carb?

Putting the flat top pistons in your engine will boost your compression ratio some. It depends on which heads you have as to your true ratio.

I'm a bit of a Cleveland fanatic, so sorry for the long post.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
chad,

as i said, i am not mechanically inclined. what i posted was cut-and-pasted directly from an email from the guy i bought the car from. frankly, it's all greek to me.

from what i know about the previous owner (i investigated him more than the car) i have confidence that whatever was needed in the conversion was done correctly and most professionally. he didn't do it himself, he paid someone to do it.

tell you what. i see you are in northeast ohio. care to meet halfway, say pittsburgh, and give it a once-over? (that's half joking. but only half.)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
OOOOPS!

sorry, cj, you aren't chad. it's early, what can i say.
 

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I wouldn't worry about it.
If you like your car and enjoy it who cares if its 100% original.
100% original sucks. :D
Thats why there is an aftermarket.

I think 100% original trailer queens are as much of a waste as sending them to the scrap yard.
Classic cars should be enjoyed.
 

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Pittsburg! Grrrrr!

You're asking a Clevelander if he wants to go to Pittsburg? (Its a Cleveland Browns/Pittsburg Steelers thing...) ;)

Where in WV are you? I tend to head down I-77 when I go through WV. Also, have been down Ohio River valley from the top of the panhandle (East Liverpool) to Wheeling.

I'd ask you to visit, but I'm kind of ashamed of my Cats right now... :eek: They've been off the road longer than they were on it. Alpha has been torn apart since early '84, and Beta was last licensed in '86. They both need work, and unfortunately, I have neither the $$$ or the time to do it properly, so they sit until I can. As I have said before, 71-73 Cougar parts might as well be made out of 'unobtainium'.
 

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CJ, I think your Browns have more trouble than just Pittsburg after seeing what the team from my area done to them yesterday.(sorry I couldnt help myself on that one)mm
 

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value?

No I don't think it hurts the value at all. On the contrary it may help. BY 1973 the performance was way down. A few old hot rodding tricks are fine on a 351. If he put in flat topped pistons and hardened the valves AND it runs well on pump gas he did a good job!

If it was an earlier BOSS 302, 428 CJ or 429 CJ I'd say keep it stock looking.

Tim B
1969 XR7 428 CJR convertible
http://members.aol.com/timbrands/index.html
 

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Discussion Starter #9
cj,

i'm not too far from I79 (what you would come into WV on via Pittsburgh) and just below I68 (goes from Morgantown to DC area.)

and if i'm not mistaken, the Stillers play the Brownies next week, don't they?

meet you at the stadium? we could spend the entire game in the parking lot since tickets are probably made of "unobtainium" too.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
tim,

if this thing had a 428 or 429, there would have been no reason to soup it up. criminy, what would a souped up 429 be? i remember a friend's 69 camaro ss with a 427. couldn't keep tires on the damned thing.

didn't somebody make a 454 back there somewhere? was that the largest stock engine anyone had?
 

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1970

All horse power ratings are GROSS.

The 454 was a later version of Chevy's 427. They were available in various levels of tune. I think the LS6 was the aluminum head 450 horse monster.

Pontiac, Buick and Olds had different 455s. Don't pick a fight with a Buick GS Stage 1! All were rated around 360.

Chrysler had the 426 Hemi ( rated at 425 hp, 500 in reality), with the exception of Ford's SOHC 427 (never installed in a production vehicle), probably the best and meanest engine ever made. Chrysler also had the (no slouch either) 440.

Ford of course had the 428CJs and SCJs (under rated at 335 hp). In 1970 they had them and the 429 available. The 429 came in Thunderjet (360hp) Cobra Jet (370 hp) and Super Cobra Jet (370hp). Under rated, but closer to reality than the 428s. The BOSS 429 (375 hp) was one of the best looking of all engines IMHO. Unfortunately Ford detuned it for street use too much. Out of the box it wasn't faster than the more pedestrian 428 CJ. With a few minor mods it was back to it's 500 hp.

Lincoln had the 460 (365 hp) and Cadillac had the 500 (400 hp)the largest MODERN production engine.

Tim B
 

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A stock 73 351-4V (CJ or 'Q' code) was rated at 225 net horsepower. A 351C-4V ('M' code) from a 70 or early 71 with the closed chamber heads and flat top pistons was rated at 300 gross horsepower.

The difference between gross and net HP is gross was just the engine HP taken at the flywheel. Net HP is what the engine/trans combo with normal accesories running (A/C, alternator, water pump, p/s pump), and through a full exhaust system would put down to the pavement -- more of a real world HP figure, really. There are losses in HP for all that stuff running. The biggest robber is the automatic tranny.

BTW, that 225 HP of the 73 351C-4V (engine code 'Q') was the highest rated engine Ford put out in 73. Yes, more than a 429 or 460! :D

If you ever get to race your Cat, you can compare it with my ~stock (sleeper-stock ;) ) Beta Cat. It will run [email protected] through stock dual exhaust and street tires. I do have a set of 3.70 rear gears in it, along with the factory CJ high stall torque converter. CJ converters are 10.5" and have a stall speed of approx 2700rpm.

My wife's 70 Mach 1 with its 351C-4V (rated at 300 gross HP, remember? ) runs 15.00s. The main reason hers is slower is that she is traction limited, with a 3.25 non-posi rear. I'm sure it would love a set of 3.50 posi gears, but wifie won't let me mess with her baby....
 

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Discussion Starter #13
of course,

at 25,000 pounds, the cadillac needed a 500CI engine.

i'd forgotten about the chrysler hemi. there was one hemi cuda in the town i grew up in. freaking scarey vehicle that one. i don't know, but i would assume the idiot who owned it probably let it rust or sold it for drug money. they're worth three gonads today and who has three gonads?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
well, there he goes again...

speaking greek to the chinese.

really, cj, i enjoy reading all that stuff. i just don't have a clue, but i'm getting an education.

i DO know the difference between gross and net hp. i mean, i think i do.
 

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Caddy

Caddy also had a 472 way back when. The 500 was an outgrowth of the 472.

My mother had a 70 Caddy with the 472. With a 11.25:1 compression ratio, that thing was a torque monster. For giggles one day I took it to the track. The people in the stands were laughing -- until it ripped off a 15.4 second pass! :eek:

We also had a bunch of Olds 455s when I was growing up (not that I ever really did). One was a 68 Delta Custom fastback with the 'red' engine. It also had an over 11:1 motor. That was a real screamer! Never got it to the track though.

I also raced my 73 Electra with its 455 Buick motor. It didn't do too bad for a low compression smog motor. 16.12

One regular at the track had a 77 Country Squire wagon with a 460. OK, it was good for a high 16 second run. Then one day he added Nitrous for giggles. He made one full-nitrous pass -- nitrous assisted from starting line to finish line. That big old tank made a 14.8 second pass! I also had a wagon like it and mine weighed 5400 pounds empty. Like I said, TANK! My wife's F-250HD ext cab weighs 600 pounds less than that old wagon! :p
 

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73,

Did you look at your heads to see what they are? The clues were in that link I submitted. Just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
cj...

i didn't have time today to even sigh as i pulled out of the driveway past the 73. i will take a look tomorrow if it doesn't rain. you do have me curious but i still have faith in the previous owner.

by the way, speaking of weight, does anyone know what the 73 weighed (XR-7 stock with a/c, power everything.)
 

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Discussion Starter #18
okay cj, i took a look...

but i have no clue what i was looking for. the freaking air cleaner has so many doodads connected to it that it gets in the way. the label on the carburator has a label on it with printing so small only a mouse could read it. i can clearly see "edelbrock" on the intake manifold, but not much else. it does, however, say "edelbrock 2V." problem? not?

i have no clue where the 4s and little bump might be that you mention in the other thread. minor non-motorhead here. maybe i'll take the camera out and post photos if it warms up and doesn't rain.
 

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You'll need to look at the upper front corner of the heads, just outside of the valve cover. One of the heads should be easy to see -- even if you have air. There will be a large 1/2" high 2 or 4. There may also be a 4* with the * being a raised 1/4"diameter pimple. 2 being 2-barrel heads, 4 being closed chamber four barrel heads, and the 4* being open chamber four barrel heads. Later 351M-400 heads may be unmarked.

Judging by the marking on your Edelbrock intake manifold it does sound as though you still have the two barrel heads. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. The two barrel heads have ports (intake passages) almost as big as a big block (429, 460). They're waaaaay bigger than Windor style small block ports. The four barrel heads are even bigger! Some subsribe to the notion that two barrel heads are better for the street since they have the smaller ports. This allows for a higher velocity intake airflow at lower RPMs which will allow crisper throttle response. The only real advantage to 4V heads is when you are winding up the motor to over 4000rpm or greater. This same theory holds true for oval- and square-port big block Chevy heads. I had a big block in my Camaro that had oval port heads. It was still able to put out well over 400 horsepower to the ground.

Having the forged flat top pistons in your motor aren't really an advantage. Well, being forged they're stronger than cast pistons. 2V Clevelands all used flat top pistons. All domestic 2V Clevelands have open chamber heads. The 'M' code 4V Clevelands used flat top pistons with the high compression (closed chamber) heads. The later 'Q' code, or 351CJ 4V engine used dished pistons and open chamber (low compression) heads.
 
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