Back in the 1970's and 1980's there were a lot of magazine articles recommending you go down and get 351W 4V heads from the junk yard and put them on your 289 or 302 to make it faster. There was some truth to it as the 351W 4V heads had slightly bigger valves and slightly better ports. They have a much bigger combustion chamber so using them on a 302 or 289 also means you have to increase compression somehow to keep from losing horsepower. That is easiest to accomplish by using popup pistons but can be done by milling the heads and / or block .100". This is quite a lot and it takes one hell of a good machinist to do it properly. The big drawback is that once the metal is gone you can't put it back.
You also must use some sort of special integral washer bolt beacause of the head bolt diameter difference. You must also drill the steam holes in the heads to match the block holes found in the 289 / 302.
Bottom line they are not worth any more than a stock core head except to someone doing a numbers match restoration. Much easier, cheaper horsepower can be gotten by using Edelbrock, Trick Flow, AFR, Holley, Ford Motorsport or later model (89 - up) 302 HO heads.
Something else to know is that 351W-2V and 351W-4V heads from 1969 are identical except for the casting of 2V and 4V in the heads. Ford had used different casting ID on 4V heads at the Windsor plant up to that time and continued it but realized in 1970 that it was senseless. So 1970 351W heads are also identical but lack the 4V casting number.
wel it will depend on what year 302 you have before you call them worthless. i have 2 sets of 69 351W heads in my garage and one is a 2bl one and one is a 4bbl one. they look identical as well. but as far as the 302 heads are concerned... what about the later models?? if im not mistaken, didnt they have larger chambers to deal with emissions crap at the time? comparing the 69 heads to each other yeah, id see what you mean about chamber sizes but what about someone with say a 74 ( hint hint ) 302 in his car? them id believe it would make a difference. still, they are still cheap and i do find them out here. matter of fact im gonna hit the junk tomorrow cuz i finally got a day off!! WOO HOO!!
They are still worth a little bit of $$$. I sold mine off the 351w I was rebuilding for $75.00. They sold right away too. I wouldn't throw them out if your not going to use them, because they are still a good head, they just aren't as good for a HP build-up's.
As I understand it all W heads are same from 69 till the hardened seats went in in 76 I think. I have never seen a 2V or 4V designation on any of my heads like 289/302s have. btw I have a set of 302 4V heads for sale I think. They are 289 chambers with 302 valves I believe. Can you put the big 351 valves in the 302 heads?
Combustion chamber size got bigger as the factory produced with less and less compression. You can put bigger valves in an earlier 289 - 302 head easily. It won't make a big difference without a little port rnlargement.
302 and 351 heads from the 1970's to mid 80's are not worth messing with for performance use. Some of the aftermarket cast iron heads are as low as $600.00 a pair, ready to bolt on..
I don't have my tech books in frt of me but as I recall it was the pistons that got dished giving less compression and that the cc of combustion chamber in head itself was same from 69-76. Remember that bigger valves give less bottom end power.. I know plenty of marine engines used the 351 heads on 302 blks. This is fine as boat engines require a compression ration of just less than 9:1 as the marine engines are always under load. Wouldn't a guy rather bolt on C heads anyway if going to all the trouble of new head bolts and drilling holes anyway? Plenty of C choices open closed aussie 2V 4V. Each individual must determine what his goal is hi end low end or midrange power and build accordingly. I have found that using plain and simple stock geometry gets me plenty o' speeding tickets.Catzyaz.
302 - 4V heads, made only in 1968 with casting number C80E-F are also good at 53.5 CC's.
351W heads are all the same chamber size at 60.4CC's from 1969 thru 1977. Yup, they put dish pistons in from 1971 thru at least 1982. 1978 - thru 1988 heads jumped to 69 CC's. These heads are totally unsuitable on a 302 or 289 without some sort of compression increase.
The 1975 - 76 heads have air injection drilled into the casting which makes them particularly poor choices for any repair.
Cleveland heads require a ridiculous amount of money and time investment to make them work, and performance gains will be costly to achieve through this method.
I think Ray that you are completely missing the point of what I have said in my previous posts or possibly did not read them carefully. YOU CAN BUY BRAND NEW 351W or 289 / 302 AFTERMARKET HEADS THAT NEED NO MODS WHATSOEVER THAT WILL OUTPERFORM ANY CLEVELAND HEAD INSTALLED ON A WINDSOR FOR A SMALL FRACTION OF THE COST INVOLVED IN MAKING OLD JUNK CLEVELAND OR WINDSOR HEADS USABLE.
Go to www.nhra.com for all the head CC information you could ever hope to know, look under stock engine specs. Lots of good information on casting numbers for any car.
Royce, I'm with you on this one all the way. Some people just cant stand the thought of non Ford parts on there cars, which is ok but the truth is OEM Ford small block heads pretty much suck and you are correct on the cost involved on making them better just dont make sense if your really wanting to make some power.mm
I think the question was are 69 351 heads worth anything and the discussion led to 351 heads on a 302. Royce points out you can spend lotsa coin on aftermarket engine parts . Not every car is a race car so I thought this thread would pan out to be some good info both pro and con on C and W heads when I posed the question "wouldn't you rather" and pointed out each individual must determine his own specifics. I myself can't recommend using a 351 C or W head on a small blk for headbolts, compression reasons the fact that water passages do not line up and increase of leak at ends is likely.So to answer the question "Do 351 W heads have any value?"I suppose they are worth something to someone who can't stand the thought of putting aftermarket parts on their engine.
Ray, the discussion led to 351 heads on a 302 because basically thats there greatest worth. Royce did state the worth to a # correct restoration. And also if you reread the post"s you will find that Royce was actually stating the cost involved in new aftermarket heads was more cost efficent than rebuilding the stock castings, especially when the performance aspect is added into it.
Regardless of your recommending 351 heads on a smallblock, its done on a quite regular basis and its no big deal to drill a few holes and Ford themselves makes a bolt kit for it so they must think its ok too. The blanket statement on bigger valves taking away low end torque is not always correct either. A small intake port like on a 351 w head is not usally affected that way compared to a 4v Cleavland head is by increasing the valve size. mm
Don't pitch the heads. As Royce said, someone doing a concourse correct Cougar or other ford product may be very interested in the heads. You may even be able to find someone who has something you need, that they have and no longer have any use for. Over the years I have sent a number of people parts for nothing more than the cost of shipping. It is amazing what some of those same people ended up sending me at some later date. Try posting an add in the classified section and see what you come up with.
69 XR7 Convertible http://home.sprynet.com/~pamar/cougar.html
I have been following all of this discussion, and I say"yes". There is truth in about everything that has been said. Yes, you can spend a lot of dough on a set of cast iron ford heads to make power. If you do all of your work with your checkbook, send your money to World Products for a pair of Roush 185 or 200's. If you are like me, and want to try your hand at porting, and have LOTS of time and patience, then you can make a lot of power with 289 heads with big valves, or 351 W heads (taking into account the compression ratio problems (et. al.)
You can drop $500-$600 bucks in a big hurry on a set of Ford heads (289/302/351W)even if you do porting yourself. You would have $900-$1000 in a set of World heads by the time you got em all bolted in. (Plus $100 for gaskets for either!)
I can't make any educated comments about any of the BOSS or Cleveland stuff...
My recent experience on Ebay suggest you can get $100 for a pair of decent DOOE 351 W castings, with valves and stock rocker arms, etc... Junk yards are charging $30-$50 apiece for rebuildable cores, only guarantee is they arent cracked. There seems to be a demand for this casting number, I believe amongst you dirt trackers, Mark! Bigger runner volumes and a nice, robust casting. Much more rigid & beefy than my little 65/66 289 castings. I like the 289 castings from the standpoint of compression with stock TRW pistons (slight, maybe 0.100 "dish") or even flat top pistons. Gets you up over 10:1 with the true flat tops, I believe.
I'm not a big proponent of compression to go fast... 9.5:1 on the low side, any more than 10.5:1 on the high side and you'll have problems with pre-detonation... depending on any feather edges or burrs in the combustion chamber area. The power is all in the cam and heads... Gotta breathe baby... Engines are just big air pumps so they say. Given the basics that you are within shouting distance of the right intake/carb setup and a header/ free flowing exhaust setup.
You can adjust your tranny to your individual power band through the modern magic of stall converters... My TCI 3500 stall unit will roast street tires at 2000 rpm, will idle around town without getting above a rumble, but allows rpm's to build quickly from a launch... It's all black magic to me. I'm sure I'll hear about this from Modified Mark, because you are just so flarned well educated and informed about this stuff... no kiddin' You've earned your degree from the school of hard knocks in the dirt track world, along with the high tuition even!
My 289 heads on a 302, ported to the big giant racing gaskets, with the 1.94/1.60 valves, with the TRW pistons with the tiny "Dish", have nice low end and charge hard through 6500 rpm's.
I've said too much, but hope there is something useful in here.
Take my aproach collect it all cause you never know when another project will land in your lap. it always cost more to replace this stuff later on and unless your hurting for space put them in the back and hold onto them.