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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am a 351W guy. Never looked at or worked on any big block other than a 390. What is the difference between a 428 and 429. I have the option to purchase either one of them. The 428 is a 1969 block no heads. The 429 is a 70 complete out of a Lincoln or some other 4 door. Educate me!
 

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The 428's and 429's most associated with Cougars are Cobra Jets. But there are other types of 428's and 429's floating around out there, built for different purposes, i.e. 428 Police Interceptor, and 429 ThunderJet, used in big luxury cruisers. See if you can determine if these motors you are looking at are CJ's. Of course there's the Boss 429, but thats a horse of completely different color.

428 CU IN stuff I copied from the net:

Introduced in 1966
Bore and stroke of 4.13X3.98
Cast iron crankshaft
forged-steel connecting rods
cast iron intake manifold
345 horsepower @ 10.5:1 compression ration

Variations of the 428 existed throughout its' life span, including the 428 Police Interceptor, 428 Thunderjet and 428 Marauder.
The Police Interceptor contained an aluminum intake, high performance camshaft and beefier connecting rods to produce 360 hp.

428 Cobra Jet

Standard was 2.09 inch intake and 1.66 inch exhaust valves.
Cast iron intake manifold identical to the aluminum one on the police interceptor.
Cast iron exhaust manifolds.
Two-bolt main block
Between 345-360 horsepower

428 Super Cobra Jet

Internal structure differences included Lemans type cap screw rods
The capscrews were shorter than the 427's to clear the block
Externally balanced
External engine oil cooler


Here is some 429 info I gleaned off the net:

First was the base 429, known as the Thunder Jet (TJ). It came in T-birds and full size Fords in the late 60's and early 70's. Typically 360 horsepower. By far and away the most common -- they made 100,000+ of these. Can be ID'd be block casting numbers of C8SE, C9VE, D0VE, D1VE among others and head casting numbers of C8SE, C9VE, D0VE among others.

Then there was the 429 Cobra Jet (CJ). It was built only in 1970-71. It was only installed in mid-size (1970-71) and pony cars (1971 only). 370 HP (likely underrated), thick strong blocks and massive ports int he heads. ID'd by D0VE-A and D1VE-AA casting numbers on the block and D0OE-R on the heads. No other numbers are CJ. Not too common, maybe a total production of 15,000.

The 429 SCJ was a stronger version on the CJ. The difference was forged pistons, solid lifter cam and four bolt mains. The rest of the info is the same. Even less common with a production of maybe 3,000.

The baddest of them all is the Boss 429. It was rated at 375HP (grossly underrated). It came in special Mustangs (and 2 Cougars) in 1969-70. It had four bolt mains, aluminum hemi-style heads and looked like no other engine. ID by casting number on the block of C9AE. The heads ID themselves. Very rare and very expensive as only about 1,200 were made.

You true FE gurus can add/correct info to the above.
 

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Sunroof has a big brain. Please note...the 428 and 429 are completely different classes or families of engines. The 429 is known as a 385 family due, I believe, to the bore size being 385 centimeters. The 429 is the same block as the modern 460 sold in Motorsport catalogs. The 429/460 is going to be the cheaper of the engines to build.
 

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Mercougar67 said:
The 429 is known as a 385 family due, I believe, to the bore size being 385 centimeters.
Yikes, that's huge! 385cm = 151.6 inches. Now, that's what I call a BIG BLOCK!:cwm27:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That is a bunch of info. Thanks

OK for the short of it. Since I would be building either of the engines with aftermarket aluminum heads and intake as well as replacing the lower end from the crank up, the 429 would be the least expensive to build???

Also, since my car is an H code nothing special number wise, which of the two would be more correct for a 69 coupe? Sounds like either one would be fine. I am looking for raw power!!!! Just not sure if I would gain all that much over my 351W.
 

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Why wouldn't an aluminum headed 351W be the best option -- then you don't have to change the rest of the driveline.

You can make some serious HP with the good heads out there!

The 429 will fit but it's really, really tight.
The 428 fits but I think the overall cost will get you if you're starting from scratch.

Remember, you have to change the tranny, driveshaft, radiator (maybe), fans, pullies, exhaust with the 429.

Also consider a stroker 351 -- I have heard of at least three Cougars making 600+ with their strokers.
 

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If the 69 428 is the real deal buy it. A date code correct 69 428 block could be worth a decent buck. Be sure to check the bore 4.13 and measure the distance between the cylinder cores. Also, the stroke on a 428 should be 3.98. A lot of people try to pawn off a 390 as a 428. the blocks are nearly identical and the stroke is close.

A 428 is a lot cheaper to build now than it was 5-10 years ago. Stroker kits are now pretty common, and can put will into the 450+ ci range. Pick up a scat stroker kit, a set of edelbrock heads, and a decent intake and you can have an easy 400 RWHP in a very driveable combo.
 

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Regarding the 428, it also matters if the block is a true CJ block or a police interceptor block. The real cobra jet block had reinforced webbing as well as a higher nickel content, i.e. stronger. The back of the CJ block should have a "C" cast or welded into the back of it. A police interceptor may have an "A". The value is markedly different (about double). Some SCJ block had the word "super" stamped on the rear.
 

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jsv said:
The real cobra jet block had reinforced webbing as well as a higher nickel content, i.e. stronger. The back of the CJ block should have a "C" cast or welded into the back of it. A police interceptor may have an "A". The value is markedly different (about double). Some SCJ block had the word "super" stamped on the rear.
I am fairly certain that the "high nickel" block thing is a myth. And I am fairly sure the SCJ blocks were identical to the CJ blocks. I do not believe that "super" was ever cast into the blocks, and the differences between the CJ and SCJ engines are all in the rotating assembly. The "super" was cast into the pistons. The rods were different as well, leMans rods I beleieve. And there was an additional "hatchett" balancer used on the front of the crank.

And if you can find me a 428 "A" block for half the price of CJ block I'll buy every one you can find. The "C" code triple web blocks are worth more, but only to a concours correct guy will they be worth twice. The value of the "A" blocks has come up alot since all the original blocks are getting pretty scarce, and the repo's are $3K-4$K.

I have a reinforced webbing D4 390 block that is bored to 4.080, and would have safely gone to 4.13. They are very rare, but are as close to a CJ block as you can get economically.
 

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dfwcatsclub said:
Yikes, that's huge! 385cm = 151.6 inches. Now, that's what I call a BIG BLOCK!:cwm27:
It's what Elvis would've bought. I go through life wonderin' what Elvis would do in certain situations. When in doubt, do what Elvis would do.

Still don't know where the expression "can't swing a dead cat" comes from...... No offense to any Cougar people that might be on this forum.
 

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Paul: Sorry to disagree. I have a 69 428 SCj hardtop, and the word SUPER is stamped (not cast) onto the flat surface behind the head on the right of the engine. I spoke to Rob Celedon the other day and his SCJ car has the same stamp on the block.
 

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I stand corrected

You learn something new every day. I was not aware that "super" was stamped into any of the blocks. I've been dinking with these motors for 20 years and never seen that. Being stamped, not cast makes sense, as they were reportedly all poured at the same time.

Do you know at what point in the assembly it was stamped? I am curious as to what the parameters were that had been used to designate it as a "super" block.

I talked to my machinist, who owns several CJ, SCJ and 427 blocks and cars and he concurred with you. He also said that it was his understanding that all the CJ and SCJ blocks were the same, and that the "super" stamp was on some of the blocks to id them on the line for the correct rotating assembly installation. He also agreed with you that some got it and some did not.

He did however say with some certainty that there is no such thing as a higher nickel content 428 block. The A and C castings were poured using the same nodular cast iron. He also said that his experience machining the blocks has shown no difference in the metal. And that while the CJ and SCJ blocks are superior to the "A" blocks, the CJ and SCJ blocks are identical with the exception of the "super" stamping. He also added that they were poured in the same molds at the same time.

Again, I am not that familiar with the SCJ. What is your experience with the different castings are far as nickel content and differences between the CJ and SCJ outside of the obvious "super" stamping.
 

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I have a set of stamps capable of stamping SCJ or Holman Moody or anything else you like into a block. Increased Ebay value in a few strokes of a hammer!

There's nothing special about the 428 SCJ block. http://www.428cobrajet.com/id-block.html

Also, the truth is that all pasenger car blocks sold by Ford of any given era had the same iron alloy. No special alloy was ever used for anything in the era when 428's were made. A 1970 1600CC Pinto block has the same nickel content as any 1970 428CJ or SCJ.

Ford did add higher levels of chromium or phosphorous to some 427 blocks depending again on the model year being discussed. There were experiments using added amounts of several alloys to the mix but higher amounts of nickel was found to be not useful.

Finally, the PI and CJ blocks of a given era were the same. The C marking on the rear face of blocks predated the CJ era. There was some overlap of the C and A markings on the rear block face which means many early CJ's have the A on the block while many police and pasenger 428 engines have the C marking.



jsv said:
Paul: Sorry to disagree. I have a 69 428 SCj hardtop, and the word SUPER is stamped (not cast) onto the flat surface behind the head on the right of the engine. I spoke to Rob Celedon the other day and his SCJ car has the same stamp on the block.
 

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Royce: thanx for the clarification. If I can, I will try to get a picture of the "SUPER" stamp to show.
 

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Royce Peterson said:
Finally, the PI and CJ blocks of a given era were the same. The C marking on the rear face of blocks predated the CJ era. There was some overlap of the C and A markings on the rear block face which means many early CJ's have the A on the block while many police and pasenger 428 engines have the C marking.
Royce,

It was my understanding (and maybe incorrectly so) that the A blocks did not have the reinforced webbing. That the CJ-SCJ blocks had the C scratch cast and the reinforced webbing, but the A blocks did not.

If I read what you have posted correctly, both the CJ-SCJ and the PI-passenger blocks could have had the A or the C. I had always thought that one of the ways to ID the CJ-SCJ block was the C scratch. And that the A blocks would not have the reinforced webbing.

If this is not the case, what is the difference between any/all of the 428 blocks. Is the only difference the webbing? And were any of the A blocks webbed for the CJ-SCJ application? Can you eloborate further on what was produced when and what application it may have been used for. Also, is there eny reasonable way to figure what application a block would be for if someone is out looking and comes a across one.

Thanks,
 

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The A blocks were the earlier type. The C blocks were later. Both were used on 428 PI, passenger car and Cobra Jet applications. The C blocks started to be used in mid 1967 before the CJ production started. The A blocks were made until mid 1968 model year. After that nothing but C blocks were made. So there was an overlapping period of perhaps a year from say June 1967 until June 1968 when both types were being made and used, apparently for both CJ and non - CJ applications.

The "Super" stamped on the block was not telling the line worker that there was something special about the block. It was telling him the engine in question was to get the 1UA crankshaft and the SCJ rods, cookie cutter etc. The block itself was the same as any other 428 block used in the late 1969 thru the end of 1970 model year.

Again I agree that this was done at the factory but it is something that can easily be reproduced because the block itself is nothing special.
 

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The 428's and 429's most associated with Cougars are Cobra Jets. But there are other types of 428's and 429's floating around out there, built for different purposes, i.e. 428 Police Interceptor, and 429 ThunderJet, used in big luxury cruisers. See if you can determine if these motors you are looking at are CJ's. Of course there's the Boss 429, but thats a horse of completely different color. 428 CU IN stuff I copied from the net: Introduced in 1966 Bore and stroke of 4.13X3.98 Cast iron crankshaft forged-steel connecting rods cast iron intake manifold 345 horsepower @ 10.5:1 compression ration Variations of the 428 existed throughout its' life span, including the 428 Police Interceptor, 428 Thunderjet and 428 Marauder. The Police Interceptor contained an aluminum intake, high performance camshaft and beefier connecting rods to produce 360 hp. 428 Cobra Jet Standard was 2.09 inch intake and 1.66 inch exhaust valves. Cast iron intake manifold identical to the aluminum one on the police interceptor. Cast iron exhaust manifolds. Two-bolt main block Between 345-360 horsepower 428 Super Cobra Jet Internal structure differences included Lemans type cap screw rods The capscrews were shorter than the 427's to clear the block Externally balanced External engine oil cooler Here is some 429 info I gleaned off the net: First was the base 429, known as the Thunder Jet (TJ). It came in T-birds and full size Fords in the late 60's and early 70's. Typically 360 horsepower. By far and away the most common -- they made 100,000+ of these. Can be ID'd be block casting numbers of C8SE, C9VE, D0VE, D1VE among others and head casting numbers of C8SE, C9VE, D0VE among others. Then there was the 429 Cobra Jet (CJ). It was built only in 1970-71. It was only installed in mid-size (1970-71) and pony cars (1971 only). 370 HP (likely underrated), thick strong blocks and massive ports int he heads. ID'd by D0VE-A and D1VE-AA casting numbers on the block and D0OE-R on the heads. No other numbers are CJ. Not too common, maybe a total production of 15,000. The 429 SCJ was a stronger version on the CJ. The difference was forged pistons, solid lifter cam and four bolt mains. The rest of the info is the same. Even less common with a production of maybe 3,000. The baddest of them all is the Boss 429. It was rated at 375HP (grossly underrated). It came in special Mustangs (and 2 Cougars) in 1969-70. It had four bolt mains, aluminum hemi-style heads and looked like no other engine. ID by casting number on the block of C9AE. The heads ID themselves. Very rare and very expensive as only about 1,200 were made. You true FE gurus can add/correct info to the above.
My neighbor owned one of the 429 Cougars, candy apple red, it belonged to Mrs. Henry Ford. My neighbors owned Edward Nepi Beauty Salon in Grosse Point, MI. Mrs. Ford was one of their clients. Mrs. Tessie Nepi fell in love with the car when Mrs. Ford drove to the salon, and Mrs. Ford sold it to Tessie Nepi. Fast, fast fast Cougar.
 
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