[Spartikus]

I've got a 79 351 block that is currently sitting in the 67 running wonderfully so I thoguht to myself... Self... Let's mess with it and see if we can't frig it up good and royally.

In fact, just pending my 408 stroker build (which will use a 95 5.8W tappet block that is cast to support rollers), I want to toss on an old set of 351C 2V heads. (Mid 70 351/400M heads) I am very familiar with the required water passage mods, gaskets etc but the answer I am having trouble getting is whether or not you can bolt on the C heads without replacing the pistons. I have seen recomendations to replace the pistons for compression reasons, high lift cam reasons etc but all I want to know is can I bolt the 2V heads (with appropraite mods) onto the 79 windsor block without having the canted valves causing clearance issues.

I could just take off the whole top end and test but now we are talking about $150 worth of gaskets and hours worth of labour just to test something the really a lot of people smarter than myself probably already know the answer to

So here I am throwing myself on your great wealth of knowledge Does the different angle on the Cleveland valves require special pistons or can I bolt em up.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I didn't mention it above but I will be using the newer release of the Edlebrock BOSS 351 intake for this swap. Money well spent IMO.

 

[Cougrrcj]

Technology has come a long way in 40 years. Just about any aftermarket SBF head will out-flow (and hence out-perform) a stock 351C-2V head. About half will outflow a 351C-4V head! Even the cast iron World Windsor Seniors that I have on my 393W flow about what a out-of-the-box Victor Jr flow - 20-25% better than 351C-4V heads.

So why mess with those 40-yr-old castings that were prone to cracking between the valve seats? K.I.S.S. Why go looking for trouble?

 

[Spartikus]

Fair question Milo

The argument of aftermarket heads vs old school is old as the hills. Are aftermarket heads better than 2V or 4V C heads? Absolutely no argument here.

Now lets talk price:

Aftermarket heads with proper spring setup and prep work $1500 easy for a set.
Set of 2V C heads from your local pick n pull: $50 + Aftermarket Edelbrock intake and gaskets for the Clevor conversion: $300

I'll be sticking some aftermarket heads on the 408 to let it breathe but who could argue bolting on 50-100 horse for $350?

 

[Spartikus]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7183/

That is the intake. It says designed for 4V heads on the summit site but that is incorrect. It is designed for the 2V C heads.

I just thought it would be cool as hell to have a BOSS 351 in my 67

Between this upgrade, the mild cam (Grind still undetermined as I figure out exactly what the top end is) and the long tube headers that are currently on the car I am really hoping to be in that 350 HP range. Put that infront of my 4:11s and I suspect it will keep me happy until I can free up the $5k for the 408 project. heh

 

[Cougrrcj]

OK, so you have the heads and intake, but now you're also going to need a different exhaust - headers or cast iron manifolds and H-pipe at a minimum. What about pushrods? Remember that Clevelands use a 1.73:1 rocker arm compared to the SBF's 1.6. That will increase the lift of the cam about .030. Make sure you have the proper springs for that (without going into coil-bind) and the PTV clearance!

I bought my professionally-ported Windsor Seniors used for $400. I also picked up a nice set of mildly massaged Trick Flow Street Heat cast iron high-ports for the same price, but I decided to use the Windsors since the high-ports made the headers fit too high up.. SBF head deals are out there if you have the patience. Those 5.0 Mustang guys are always getting rid of good parts in their quest for that extra tenth...

 

[Spartikus]

Thats pretty cool CJ. I have been looking for some used SBF heads for 3 years now over a 200 mile radius (Calgary to edmonton and all points inbetween) but it's few and far between. I see a set every 2-3 months but guys want 800-1200 for used heads which makes me laugh. I'm on kijiji about 3-5 times a day plus a couple rodder swap forums for this area. I picked up a few sets of E7T heads for like $50 each but havent bolted them on yet.

Pushrods I was going to replace anyways along with lifters and yes I was aware of that.. you know what I totally didnt think of though is the exhaust

Anyways if I can get an answer from someone smarter than myself on whether there is PTV clearancing issues doing the swap that would put it to rest immediately. Im not doing an internal rebuild on something that is already running well. Not with the 408 waiting to be rebuilt.

Thanks for the good feedback.

 

[Cougrrcj]

I'd forget the E7TEs and go right to the GT40s. GT40s are most commonly found on 5.0 Explorers from '95-mid '97. from mid '97-2000 you'll find the GT40Ps on those motors. Be advised that the GT40Ps have a revised spark plug location and angle so some header fitment issues may arise. Ps also have a much smaller 58cc chamber so that pumps up the compression about .6-.7 The E7TEs and GT40s have 64cc chambers. Not sure what heads are on your motor now, but probably 69cc chambers

 

[Cougrrcj]

Doing some more thinking about this... That '79 351W will have dish pistons. Remember that 351C-2V heads have 76cc chambers, so that's going to really lower your compression. Maybe if you were to use a set of Austrailian closed chamber 2V heads...

To change a cam on a 351W, you have to remove the timing cover. If you're doing this in the car, that means cutting the oil pan rail gasket and replacing with those little pieces they give you in the cam change kit. That and the PITA front oil pan end seal. I've never had good luck getting that to be leak-free once you open it up...

Ws have their valves inline, whereas Clevelands have theirs canted and rotated. Windsor piston valve relief notches will not line up to the Cleveland valves. Same thing as trying to use Twisted Wedge Windsor heads on...Well, at least when camshaft lift and duration get to be an issue for PTV clearance.

You want me to think up more excuses why you shouldn't do this? At least not for a temporary and low-buck attempt at small power gains.

 

[Spartikus]

So with that huge drop in compression you are saying I should be in good shape to throw a few pounds of boost onto it... Gotcha..

Bah.. I really wanted to try a low budget BOSS 351 heh. As with all things though you get what you pay for and it sounds like it's just more headache than it's worth unless I want to do a full and proper ground up, all matching parts, rebuild. Which would still be damn cool imo. Maybe after the stroker

Guess I'll keep huntin for those used heads.. I did have a set of GT 40Ps but with all of the header issues I wasn't intrested in popping them on. Still got my eyes out for a set of GT40s.

Thanks again.

 

[cougarshaman]

Ford sold the GT40 heads out of the SVO/Ford Motorsport catalog since 1988 til the 2k's, iirc. You don't have to find an explorer. You can find an old set sitting around somewhere.
You need to get out and rub elbows with people. Parts are everywhere. Just have to know people who have them. The internet is just not that great for this stuff.

I'm all cleveland all the time, but Milo didn't even mention that your junkyard heads will likely have the mid 70's smog bump in them and the factory 2 piece valves on top of a high likelihood of being cracked. So, that would be cheap heads, plus porting to un-bump them, and new valves. Then you're getting close to what a set of alloy heads will cost minus all the specialty parts.

Thanks to the 5 liter wars in the 90's, there are probably thousands of good heads sitting around in your local area. Get to know some people. Rub elbows. Heck, I've given young dudes parts I could have easily sold on craigslist or kijiji just so I wouldn't have to screw with some dipstick boring me with his race stories or eyeballing my shop space to see what he could rob later for meth money. And so the young dudes could get some experience swapping parts and such.
There are a lot of nice people out there without a username and password to c-list and Kijiji, and they have garages full of crap they'll practically give away if you're nice.

 

[Cougrrcj]

Andy,

The reason I said to look for 5.0 Explorers is that nobody else does! If you want EFI drivability, take the whole GT40-equipped 5.0 roller cam motor for next to nothing. Or sell off the 'GT40 intake' to some Mustang guy... If you tried to find a pair of GT40 heads from a 'Cobra' or 1st gen Lightning, you'll pay through the nose. The junkyard across the street has a bunch of '96-2000 5.0 Explorers laying around... Say you want heads from a Explorer and they practically throw them at you! Same heads, but go figure...

 

[cougarshaman]

Yeah, I was just trying to flesh out your point a bit more.
looking for Explorer parts is easy, fo sho.

when can I come pick up one of those q cats?