[351CJ HELLCAT]

After building this Cleveland I believe I need to make some adjustments. Its a 351 CJ with open chamber 4v heads. The block has the moroso oil restrictors installed to their specs. The whole engine is a full roller. Hydraulic roller lifters, hydraulic rollir cam, roller lifters and the Milodon 9qt pan and high volume pump. I know NOW that a hydraulic roller lifter shouldn't need the oil restrictors so what are my options? This car (67 Cougar) will be a weekend driver at best/ cruise in and car shows. I started building with taking it the drag strip once in mind but not anymore. My friend who is a Windsor guy say if we replace the hydraulic roller lifters with solid roller lifters we can leave the oil restrictors in the block and not disassemble the engine. Others, who I feel are probably correct but i want to be lazy and not yank this motor from my freshly painted money pit car, say I should just take the motor out and pull the restrictors. Not to sound like a big wimp, I'm just frustrated with this and would like a plain cut answer that makes sense so i can get it done right. Thanks again and hope some 1 learns from this.

 

[cougar2]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Who says it's wrong? Having oil restrictors and hydraulic lifters is just fine. I will be having a hydraulic flat tappet cam with restrictors as well. All you are doing is balancing or directing the oil to where it should be.
Here is a link to ask about just the 351C, you can't go wrong by asking questions there.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/

 

[351CJ HELLCAT]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

I've been told that the Hydraulic roller lifters need the oil that the oil restrictors are blocking. Without the oil flow to the lifters, they will fatigue and break. I'm confused on how one is to build a hydraulic roller cleveland without using the oil restrictors but keep ample supply of oil to the bottom end as all cleveland forums have pointed out is crucial for the engine's better health. Just signed up at the network54 too.

 

[cougar2]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

I hope others chime in on this, but as far as I know there is plenty of oil psi going to the Lifters with the restrictors. All you are doing is balancing out the pressure now to other parts of the engine. You are not robbing so much to starve the lifters. Now if I am wrong, I would like to know also.

 

[1969XR7Vert]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

You are correct that hydraulics of any kind need the oil flow to properly pump up the lifters. Your options are what you have described, assuming putting solids on a hydraulic grind would be okay (check with the manufacturer). I would go this route rather than engine removal and tear-down to remove the restrictors.

Mike, 1970fastcat can probably offer some insight as well. Mike?

Regards,

Bob

 

[dmac]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

forget this post. I re-read you initial post.

 

[1970fastcat]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Thanks for the introduction Bob, lol. I am sure Andy will chime in as well.

This sounds like a crappy situation. I was in it as well, but mine was because of metal in the engine.

Nobody on the Cleveland forum recommends the lifter galley restrictor in a hydro engine, it just doesn't supply enough oil. Most of those guys chat about the big stuff, and that is almost always solid lifter stuff. The lifter galley restrictor needs to come out if you are going to run hydraulic rollers. Leave the cam bearing restrictors though. I would recommend that all clevelands have the cam restrictors in place, even stock builds. You could put solids in it, but you would have to change the cam and the distributor gear as well. They use differant types of billet steel on solids than they do hydraulic. You may get away with hydros on a solid cam, but unfortunately, not what you are wanting to do. It would also change the way it runs considerably.

How much oil Pressure are you getting at idle? And then what is the max oil pressure you have?

If it were me, I would yank the engine and take the restrictor out. You may be able to do it with the engine in the car, but not sure if you would be able to get an allen wrench up in there. I guess it depends on how deep you tapped your threads. Also, might want to think about running restricted pushrods to help with oil redirection. They don't help much, but for the extra buck each, it is worth it.

 

[cougarshaman]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

I hope others chime in on this, but as far as I know there is plenty of oil psi going to the Lifters with the restrictors. All you are doing is balancing out the pressure now to other parts of the engine. You are not robbing so much to starve the lifters. Now if I am wrong, I would like to know also.

It's not an issue of PSI. It's an issue of volume.
You have 16 little pumps puking oil out every rotation. You need volume, especially at high rpm when the valvetrain can starve.
Generally speaking, a Cleveland really doesn't even need a high pressure pump. High volume will generally suffice until you get into race territory, which he's awfully close to with this build.
Restricting brings both volumue and PSI down.
So, the solution is to follow Bob and Mike's recommendations above. Besides, a solid roller is going to give you more of what you're after anyway.

 

[cougarshaman]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Here's a link to a conversation that Dan Jones took part in over on the cleveland forum. Dan would be one of the most knowledgeable people on planet Earf at this time when it comes to Clevelands and cams.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/119419/thread/1281816418/Howards+hydraulic+roller+lifters

It's a lot of crunchy reading, but building hot rods is not for people who don't want to do the homework. No offense intended to anyone.

 

[1970fastcat]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Another thing I would like to add, If you go solid, it isn't just the cam and lifters that is involved. You will need either a bronze or Lunati everwear gear for the dizzy, and roller thrust plate and machine the timing gear or get one of the timing sets from Australian Muscle Parts or Rollmaster (also in Australia). I got a phone call from Australia last night at 11 to let me know my new timing set is shipping out. I have the roller setup, but used a gear drive set and now hate it so I am going with a chain.

I also don't have a high volume oil pump, but mine is fully restricted on the top end. I do have the high pressure spring installed though. Again, I have a solid roller setup, if you stick with the hydro, you need to take other measures.

Another recommendation, don't use a high volume pump unless you restrict the top end for solid lifters. You stand the chance of sucking the oil pan dry at high RPM's. I did that once at about 7000 RPM with an unrestricted solid engine (before I knew of restricing things). I was lucky it didn't hurt anything.

 

[1969XR7Vert]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

On my second ever C build I used restrictors (and left the cam one out just as Mike suggests) and a HV pump. I had to go to Fram HP-1's filters because there was so much pressure the standard oil filters were "plumping" - not good. On my latest build I used no restrictors and a standard volume pump - and I have more than enough - plenty of oil pressure (if you believe the factory gauge anyway).

 

[cougarshaman]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Probably the most hotly debated and contested part of cleveland builds is oiling.

It's helpful to plumb the top end for pipe thread and install an oil pressure sender or vein for a gauge to read the pressure at the end of the line. Though, hardly anyone ever does this and lots of clevelands are still living.

The road race oilpan I got from roadracer68 had the oil pump with it. It was a hv/hp pump also and the pan probably holds 12 qts. Some Nascar engines used a stock pressure/high volume oil pump, but they were using solid flat tappet lifters. So, it's important to keep the focus on hydraulic roller vs. solid roller lifters.
Talking to people about flat tappet oiling is easy to do and leads to a lot of incorrect conclusions as well as wasted effort. So, I'll stop with that now.

 

[cougarshaman]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

You stand the chance of sucking the oil pan dry at high RPM's. I did that once at about 7000 RPM with an unrestricted solid engine (before I knew of restricing things). I was lucky it didn't hurt anything.

He's using hyper pistons and hydraulics. So, really, 6500 is his rev ceiling with that combo. Anything more and the power just drops off dramatically or the pistons exceed recommended rev limit. Shifting at 6000 is probably a good idea for this setup. 7k is just axing for trouble with off the shelf run of the mill parts.

 

[doctordesoto]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

just two comments---there is a great article on clevelands in the new hot rod magizine------also in my opionion , fram hp1 filters are junk---i've had two collapse---changed to k&n (yes there pricey ) and have never had any problems---larry

 

[1970fastcat]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

He's using hyper pistons and hydraulics. So, really, 6500 is his rev ceiling with that combo. Anything more and the power just drops off dramatically or the pistons exceed recommended rev limit. Shifting at 6000 is probably a good idea for this setup. 7k is just axing for trouble with off the shelf run of the mill parts.

Right you are Andy, I should have said that if he goes solid, but doesn't restrict properly, then it will suck it dry. I guess in order to go solid lifter he would need to upgrade pistons anyway.

Did I miss a build thread somewhere? How did you know he is running KB pistons?

 

[cougar2]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Mike,
I didn't think the OP was talking about valley restrictors, I was thinking internal off of the mains. So are you saying that with a hydraulic cam, roller or tappet, is not to be restricted in any way?
I will have to check my motor out since it has not been put in the car yet. Im running a hydraulic flat tappet and I think the machine shop put restrictors in, so this is bad?
I also have a high volume oil pump.
Dennis

 

[1970fastcat]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Mike,
I didn't think the OP was talking about valley restrictors, I was thinking internal off of the mains. So are you saying that with a hydraulic cam, roller or tappet, is not to be restricted in any way?
I will have to check my motor out since it has not been put in the car yet. Im running a hydraulic flat tappet and I think the machine shop put restrictors in, so this is bad?
I also have a high volume oil pump.
Dennis

The kit comes with 5 restrictors, 4 small for number 2 thru 5 cam bearing journals (which are fed off the main) and one bigger that goes in the number 5 main journal to restrict the driver side lifter galley. The 4 cam restrictors are fine, but if there is one larger one in that triage of oil passages in the number 5 main, then take it out. The only one in the #5 main should be the one in the center for the rear cam bearing. If you run solids then it would be fine, but not with hydro.

High volume oil pump is fine, but especially like the cam restrictors with an HV pump. Normally I would only run a high volume on a block that has had the lifter bores bushed, but a hydraulic, lower RPM engine is different.

 

[cougar2]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Ok, so what you are saying is, with my setup I shouldn't have any restrictors at all, Right? With the cam that I have, Im only going to be turning 5500 to 6000 Max. The cam is an xe626H Comp Cams

 

[1970fastcat]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

If the cam bearing restrictors are in then you can leave them. Just make you don't have the larger one in the #5 bearing journal. It is the one that is angled towards the drivers side of the block.

There is no need to send as much oil to the cam as the factory did. Any little bit to redirect it to the mains helps. It also cuts down on windage some.

Any Cleveland I build in the future WILL have the cam bearings restricted, solid lifter or not, but I will likely use the restricted cam bearings from TMeyer Racing rather than the threaded restrictors since they restrict the #1 bearing too.

 

[cougar2]

Re: 351 C Help...http://www.mercurycougar.net/forums/images/smilies/wave.gif

Thanks Mike, This makes me feel a little better knowing what I said to the OP wasn't too far off.
Can I just get another restrictor and put one in #1?
What about the oil pump, what do you say is best, High volume or standard?
Again thanks,
Dennis